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exploit vs. sloppy game mechanic design
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Frying Doom
#121 - 2012-06-24 15:26:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Does this whole thing come under
"The Presumption of Safety"

Did these 5 players honestly believe they would be allowed to get away with the use of such an exploit free and clear?

Do members of Goonswarm now " rush to the forums and loudly bleat out their indignation and horror at encountering loss or danger."?

Have Goonswarm now become like "Those howling about the unfairness of Hulkageddon and the demands from entitled easymoders that the rules be changed to make EVE safer are particularly deserving of scorn because of the wealth of information and tactics used daily to avoid death in Hulkageddon."?

The risks of there actions were well documented, CCP has shown time and again that the destruction of your own belongings to get rich is not what EvE is about.

They have also shown what happens to those who deliberately exploit a bug.
http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=626

Was the Mittani right "It is this combination of ignorance and entitlement that threatens EVE."?
Did these players think they were above the rules?

I think The Mittani sums up these players actions well with "signs that this kind of passive, ignorant, and entitled player is infecting the playerbase and beginning to make demands that CCP change the nature of EVE itself to accommodate their stupidity."

So all I can say is that they did the crime and should do the time.
That punishment is in the POS bug and is a precedent that should be followed.

Exerts from Sins of a Solar Spymaster #79: The Presumption of Safety by The Mittani
http://www.tentonhammer.com/eve/spymaster/79

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Pr1ncess Alia
Doomheim
#122 - 2012-06-24 15:29:14 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:

The game mechanics involved were clearly twisted in ways CCP don't approve of, and their developer on the spot has already stated they would be in their rights to punish on breach of the rules.

For my part, I think its creative abuse for sure. The market manipulation/exploit was cunning. I don't really like the lp-duping/double-counting thing though (that was obviously broken as all hell) - and the admission of keyboard macro abuse during the cash out is distasteful. But yeah, CCP is in a bind here.

If they punish the goons appropriately the goonswarm is going to go mental. Threadnaughts and summer of tears etc. Threats of negative PR -mass unsubs - and all that, hell goons might even show up and shoot the jita monument (once the wardec 1.1 change strips them of all unwanted opposition in hisec).

If they don't punish appropriately (returning the loots, letting off the perpetrators with the lightest of slaps) then everyone else will be thinking that goons are treated with kid gloves and let off for things that other players would be ban-hammered mercilessly for.

Goons are already the CCP poster children for emergent gameplay (ie griefing hisec) and lauded in the gaming press and development conferences by CCP officials - and if they don't get an appropriate punishment for an exploit on this truly staggering scale then :shrug: I guess a lot of players may be considering their subscriptions anyway, Eve as a sandbox economic simulation becomes a lot less attracive for many when its clear that the largest alliance in the space has already rigged the game beyond any significant chance they will ever lose their position of absolute dominance.

So this is probably the "great war" we've all been missing the last few years, and its not a clash of spaceships in 0.0, its not propaganda and plots laid at BBQ's in 2006, its not about the CSM and stacking the player council and its not about G19 macro's hammering out LP offer accepts for 28 hours straight,

Its pretty much a war for the soul of Eve Online and at the end of it we'll know whether its truly CCP the developer or Goons the the something awful forums mega-alliance, that calls the shots in this game universe. I think its probably the first time in the history of massively multiplayer online gaming that there has been a war of this scale and significance - and once again Eve Online is the forerunner of some truly emergent gameplay on levels of metagaming that would make other games crawl up in a corner and cry themselves to sleep.

Still lets all keep watching. After all, this time next year the goon economic cabal might be dictating terms to the president of Iceland!


I think both you and goons need to get over goons.

They may be the loudest, they may even be the best organized... but they are a tiny tiny fraction of the people that play this game. They will cry and kick dirt around until something else grabs their attention or steals the spotlight from them.

This isn't a court of law, CCP isn't going to rue the day they messed with goons, they aren't caught in some tricky predicament where their only move left is to say "gee goons, you got us this time, you win the game". It's their game, their stuff and they are going to manage it in the way that is most fair to all players AND healthiest for the game's success.

As for the rest of the players: Even if you spent a month trying to convince people to care you will still have an infinitesimal percentage of the playerbase even knowing this drama exists... the number that actually care and will talk with their wallets? Negligible. I see and hear no sentiments that ppl want bans passed out... what ppl that do care usually first say "meh, impressive" and then continue with one of two things "they should let goons keep the stuff" and "they should reverse the damage goons made".

Either way, I'm not getting the feeling that CCP is going to have ppl unsubbing if they DO take away a goons exploited assets. If they don't, there might be a blip on the radar on ppl in FW that quit, but my guess is most would just lose interest in FW. So, not so much CCP losing income/players over this, but if they don't reverse the damage they could lose FW which they just decided to try and invest in.

We are approaching year 10 of this game. This is old hat for CCP. Nerds tried to break their game and got smacked. It really is that simple. Nothing is going to snowball from this, there will be no internet movement to save the goons exploited assets and what little there might be is the same, tired out crap, they pull time and time again.

However, I will point out that if this is completely unprecedented and unjust, goons might want to consider finding another videogame? Because that would happen in reality right?? (LOlololol).

Goons need to remember it's them logging in to CCP's servers every morning to get their epic nerd fix. Not the other way around. If they had ANY true conviction, they'd have all left years ago. They are trolling (because that's all they do) and I'm not sure they even know it anymore.

It's beyond people not trusting the boy calling wolf. Most have cotton in their ears now, they don't even care about the crazy/delusional kid screaming outside, because that's all he's done for 7 years.

Malacath Azaria wrote:
CCP were told during testing that something like this could happen & they blatantly ignored everyone. In doing this, they condoned the action wether they intended to or not.

In other news, how's business?

Before I forget.... What hair bleach do you use?


Oh dear. So they didn't just ignore it. They BLATANTLY ignored it. ooooooo

They didn't condone crap and you know it. They didn't condone it by not catching it and they CERTAINLY didn't condone it because you say they did.
Frying Doom
#123 - 2012-06-24 15:29:27 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
The people who did that were smaller offenders and didn't smear CCP's face in it. The LP scam is worse than the POS guys ever did.

The insurance fraud helped depress mineral prices for years though, as did the drone regions through gunmining. PA also helped make sure nocx never rose much above 900. These three things have probably had more of an effect on the economy as a whole (and as a result the profitability of the miners as a profession) than anything else we've talked about so far.

Possibly but the people involved didn't go out of there way to make CCP look incompetent.

So what you're saying is that it's not the size of the operation, nor the effect it has on the economy, but how embarassed CCP got?

I'm saying you pull a tiger by the tail, it will not just ignore you. You make it public, you make it a bigger thing.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#124 - 2012-06-24 15:30:21 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:


Guess CCP got tired of being taken advantage of?

Not real good for CCP's public face. They get accused of supporting a large alliance over the War dec thing and now a week later members of the same alliance are rubbing there face in it.

They really didn't need this one now.


Summer's the only time Ive seen them CARE about their "public" face rather than telling ppl to HTFU

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#125 - 2012-06-24 15:35:23 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:

Last I checked, G15/G19 were on the allowed list, as long as the user was still at the keyboard.


I imagine CCP will be able to reach their own conclusions (by analyzing how the macro's functioned over time) as to whether users were at the keyboard or not. As I said in the substantive post this is a partisan argument and there isn't likely to be much valid argumentation coming from people in the perpetrator's alliance.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#126 - 2012-06-24 15:36:32 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Almost everything Goons do is - self-avowedly, no less - an attempt to show people that all actions they take have consequences, and not neccessarily ones they'll like, either.

I'm amused that Goons are reacting so negatively to the undesirable consequences that actions they took precipitated.


Yeah this is pretty funny

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#127 - 2012-06-24 15:40:34 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:

Last I checked, G15/G19 were on the allowed list, as long as the user was still at the keyboard.


I imagine CCP will be able to reach their own conclusions (by analyzing how the macro's functioned over time) as to whether users were at the keyboard or not. As I said in the substantive post this is a partisan argument and there isn't likely to be much valid argumentation coming from people in the perpetrator's alliance.



I liked the rumor trolling tho
Cause apparently the new rule makes it.... not trolling too?

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#128 - 2012-06-24 15:43:56 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:

Last I checked, G15/G19 were on the allowed list, as long as the user was still at the keyboard.


I imagine CCP will be able to reach their own conclusions (by analyzing how the macro's functioned over time) as to whether users were at the keyboard or not. As I said in the substantive post this is a partisan argument and there isn't likely to be much valid argumentation coming from people in the perpetrator's alliance.

You said it was "admission of keyboard macro abuse". You've got no idea how it was used, so I guess you've just started or reinforced a rumor.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Prandax Xeon
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#129 - 2012-06-24 15:47:48 UTC
I say this whole thing is unfair and the Goons need to show CCP who they are dealing with. On the count of 3 all Goons need to unsubscribe to show CCP how unfair this is. We all know CCP only cares about money, so ---

1

2

3 - all goons hit ctr-Q and unsubscribe!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How is a Wyvern like an Ibis?  Neither have a drone bay!  
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#130 - 2012-06-24 15:49:17 UTC
Prandax Xeon wrote:
I say this whole thing is unfair and the Goons need to show CCP who they are dealing with. On the count of 3 all Goons need to unsubscribe to show CCP how unfair this is. We all know CCP only cares about money, so ---

1

2

3 - all goons hit ctr-Q and unsubscribe!!!!!!!!!!!!!


or "burn it down" like I keep hearing

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#131 - 2012-06-24 15:50:55 UTC
Wisdom Divine wrote:
This argument is not partisan.

The way CCP is handling this, it seems the scale of the operation had precedence over the legality of the operation.

A true sandbox can only be concerned about legality, not scale.



Sometimes you need to sit back and have a dispassonate look at the absurdity of some of these statements. CCP is a games company that run an MMO for profit. They are not some kind of Stanford Prison Experiment style academic study on the psychology of sandbox behaviour. This is a game first and foremost. If some of the players are cheating at the game they need to be stopped so the rest of the players can enjoy the game on the assumption that the game rules are preserved by the organizer.

If you guys really want to do the academic experimentation thing you should probably write up an abstract and pitch for funding.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
SavageBastard
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#132 - 2012-06-24 15:52:28 UTC
Wisdom Divine wrote:
This argument is not partisan.

The way CCP is handling this, it seems the scale of the operation had precedence over the legality of the operation.

A true sandbox can only be concerned about legality, not scale.



It is partisan in that by creating "two sides" Jade can put itself as the center of attention of one of them.
Alexandra Delarge
The Korova
#133 - 2012-06-24 15:53:53 UTC
I'm not sure if this is relevant but maybe CCP should have read some of the comments when they first announced the changes to FW a few months ago.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1273664#post1273664
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#134 - 2012-06-24 15:55:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Jade Constantine
Lord Zim wrote:
You said it was "admission of keyboard macro abuse"..


Mainly because your guy has admitted he used a keyboard macro to automate the collection of loyalty store payouts.

Protip : when I collected my loyalty store items I needed to click the button manually for 15mins straight - it was hellishly boring - somebody automating this process gains an advantage over me!

The eula is pretty explicit on this case and you've already lost this argument in the other thread.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
Frying Doom
#135 - 2012-06-24 15:57:58 UTC
Alexandra Delarge wrote:
I'm not sure if this is relevant but maybe CCP should have read some of the comments when they first announced the changes to FW a few months ago.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1273664#post1273664


Maybe they did and decided other things needed fixing first. After all who would try to exploit a known bug. You would have to be a fool wouldn't you. Imagine what the egg on you face would look like if you got caught.

Or gloated about it in General discussion.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#136 - 2012-06-24 15:59:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Zim
Jade Constantine wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
You said it was "admission of keyboard macro abuse"..


Mainly because your guy has admitted he used a keyboard macro to automate the collection of loyalty store payouts.

Protip : when I collected my loyalty store items I needed to click the button manually for 15mins straight - it was hellishly boring - somebody automating this process gains an advantage over me!

The eula is pretty explicit on this case and you've already lost this argument in the other thread.

You mean the argument where you assumed it was an automatic loop which went for 14 hours straight, which would be banned by the EULA, instead of making things like one keypress pressing F1, F2, F3 etc, which is allowed?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#137 - 2012-06-24 16:08:17 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Maybe they did and decided other things needed fixing first.

Last I checked, misc ccp devs were saying that the days of "it's time to launch, nevermind its state just launch it and we'll fix it later" were over. Which would mean that they should've delayed the launch until they reworked the mechanic until it was no longer gameable.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#138 - 2012-06-24 16:14:02 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
You said it was "admission of keyboard macro abuse"..


Mainly because your guy has admitted he used a keyboard macro to automate the collection of loyalty store payouts.

Protip : when I collected my loyalty store items I needed to click the button manually for 15mins straight - it was hellishly boring - somebody automating this process gains an advantage over me!

The eula is pretty explicit on this case and you've already lost this argument in the other thread.


You mean the argument where you assumed


I mean precisely what I said. I don't need a goonswarm forum spin-doctor to reinterpret my posts. (and nor frankly does anyone else actually wanting an open discussion).

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
stoicfaux
#139 - 2012-06-24 16:17:22 UTC
Xython wrote:
Beekeeper Bob wrote:
Exploit is Exploit....No matter how you color it
But i doubt anything serious will happen, CCP loves the Goonies too much....Cool



Please explain to me how using a poorly but intentionally designed game mechanic to it's breaking point is an Exploit.

Go ahead, I'll wait. If your answer is logically equivalent to "because Goons" we reserve the right to laugh at you.


When it potentially imbalances the game, thus potentially affecting CCP's income from the game. Business rules trump game rules, in other words.

So, as well thought out and as well implemented as it was, the market/FW/LP manipulation sounds like it is simply too egregious and too game imbalancing for CCP to ignore. Should the innovators/perpetrators be heavily punished? Nah. Should their hard-won/ill-gotten gains be removed? I hate to say it, but probably yes. =/


Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Varesk
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#140 - 2012-06-24 16:17:26 UTC


They didnt exploit anything, they used the game that CCP gave us to the fullest extent. CCP just ignored the feedback threads about what would happen. CCP was caught with their pants around their ankles and bent over the desk. They are doing the only thing CCP knows how to do, which is remove legally gained assets and silence the players via moderation or forum bans.


CCP really ****** this expansion up with the "revamp" to faction warfare and the new Inventory. Its sorta funny since they had 6 months to work on it. Considering Crucible was done in 4-6 weeks.

Maybe its time for CCP to start only doing one expansion a year and make sure its 100 percent ready for TQ. Hire some people to actually QA the patch, instead of using SiSi and not reading the feedback threads.

This summers expansion, not the worse by far but close, is just another notch in CCPs belt for delivering expansions with more problems than actual fixes.