These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

exploit vs. sloppy game mechanic design
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#81 - 2012-06-23 19:24:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Markus Reese
Yo, been away for a couple of weeks. Not sure what this thread is about, but am always interested in exploit or problem, farm mechanics. What I gather is that some people joined faction warfare, and they were making high value losses to get massive amounts of LP worth more than what they lost?

Either missed or cannot find what they fixed, but wouldnt that be a matter of the approximate value of the lp compared to the loss value? What was the change, was it nerfing the lp that fw people got?

Edit: Never thought to read the goonies threadnaught

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Ris Dnalor
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#82 - 2012-06-24 00:47:40 UTC
Xhaiden Ora wrote:
Copine Callmeknau wrote:
How is one meant to determine whether a mechanic is intended or not?


I think its pretty damn obvious this was not CCP's intention.


Delen Ormand wrote:
Wait, didn't the bankers make a shitload of money from fraud, then get bailed out with a shitload more money taken from the taxpayer and never really suffer any legal consequences for it?


Essentially, yes. Following the op's logic you should just pat them on the back and tell em "Good game guys!". I mean, they were just using the game mechanics, right? -.-


How many of those bankers faced legal consequences? And aside from that, eve isn't real, it's a game. noone was hurt from Goonswarms actions, the bankers cannot say the same.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118961

EvE = Everybody Vs. Everybody

  • Qolde
Ris Dnalor
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#83 - 2012-06-24 00:49:15 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Ris Dnalor wrote:
...That's noones' fault but CCP...

So Goons made sure to notify GM's/Dev's of the massive loophole prior to molesting it?


So, it's OUR responsibility to tell CCP when they mess up?

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118961

EvE = Everybody Vs. Everybody

  • Qolde
Ris Dnalor
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#84 - 2012-06-24 00:53:27 UTC
Ban Bindy wrote:
OP is just another goon apologist. There was no nobility in what the Goons did. Enterprise and entrepreneurialism involve offering something that other people want, not taking advantage of a mistake in CCP's design. You insult enterprising people everywhere with that kind of description. Not that I'm surprised, considering the source.

Goon tried to reap another PR bonanza from marginal activities and got their hand slapped. Simple as that. They were not being heroic. Their smugness in the original post about this earned them exactly what they got.


I disagree with your concept of enterprise and entrepreneurism, though you are entitled it. Cool

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118961

EvE = Everybody Vs. Everybody

  • Qolde
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#85 - 2012-06-24 00:58:37 UTC
Delen Ormand wrote:
Xhaiden Ora wrote:
Me thinks you don't actually understand what the term "exploit" means. Utilizing game mechanics that are not functioning as intended by the game designers to gain an advantage is an exploit. Hell, its the very definition of one.

By your logic Americans should be patting Wall Street on the back for their "entrepreneurial spirit" instead of being pissed over the economy.


Wait, didn't the bankers make a shitload of money from fraud, then get bailed out with a shitload more money taken from the taxpayer and never really suffer any legal consequences for it?



Yup and we're shocked that game players expect the same horrible leadership from game devs. :P

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#86 - 2012-06-24 04:06:32 UTC
Ris Dnalor wrote:
I say the goons did what anyone would do with the new LP store.

They figured out the best way to make isk with the programmed mechanics.

They did it really really well.

If they thing had been coded and tested properly, then they wouldn't have been able to do what they did to such an extent.


Gaming Exploit: any action which deliberately abuses a gaming mechanic in an way not intended by the developer for an advantage over other players. Frankly, it was obvious that this was not the intended use of this mechanic.. Instead of immediately reporting the bug or problem they took the "bob" approach and exploited it.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Alexzandvar Douglass
Motiveless Malignity
Deepwater Hooligans
#87 - 2012-06-24 08:53:58 UTC
What happened, no matter how many goons tell you they were taking ISK out of the game, don't let it make you any less angry.

If they had been adding ISK to the game it would have off set the massive amounts they acquired, however they took trillions out of the Market and then helped take a ton of ISK and move it to their side.

Taking ISK out of the market just makes it better for them, so the money they hog will be worth even more.
Dave Stark
#88 - 2012-06-24 09:06:08 UTC
Alexzandvar Douglass wrote:
What happened, no matter how many goons tell you they were taking ISK out of the game, don't let it make you any less angry.

If they had been adding ISK to the game it would have off set the massive amounts they acquired, however they took trillions out of the Market and then helped take a ton of ISK and move it to their side.

Taking ISK out of the market just makes it better for them, so the money they hog will be worth even more.


less angry about what? them understanding the new FW mechanics better than you?
Marconus Orion
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#89 - 2012-06-24 09:22:34 UTC
Oh.. mai... gawd....

Let it go guys. For the love of all that is holy, please just get over it and move on. Normally I would be all over these tears, but wow, it is getting pathetic. Let it go...
Alexzandvar Douglass
Motiveless Malignity
Deepwater Hooligans
#90 - 2012-06-24 09:31:37 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Alexzandvar Douglass wrote:
What happened, no matter how many goons tell you they were taking ISK out of the game, don't let it make you any less angry.

If they had been adding ISK to the game it would have off set the massive amounts they acquired, however they took trillions out of the Market and then helped take a ton of ISK and move it to their side.

Taking ISK out of the market just makes it better for them, so the money they hog will be worth even more.


less angry about what? them understanding the new FW mechanics better than you?


What I'm angry about is that a mechanic like this is able to ruin the fun for tons of other people.

You can't ruin the fun for everyone but you and justify it by saying "THE SANDBOX MAN!".
Dave Stark
#91 - 2012-06-24 09:38:19 UTC
Alexzandvar Douglass wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Alexzandvar Douglass wrote:
What happened, no matter how many goons tell you they were taking ISK out of the game, don't let it make you any less angry.

If they had been adding ISK to the game it would have off set the massive amounts they acquired, however they took trillions out of the Market and then helped take a ton of ISK and move it to their side.

Taking ISK out of the market just makes it better for them, so the money they hog will be worth even more.


less angry about what? them understanding the new FW mechanics better than you?


What I'm angry about is that a mechanic like this is able to ruin the fun for tons of other people.

You can't ruin the fun for everyone but you and justify it by saying "THE SANDBOX MAN!".


of course you can, that's exactly what people say when you ruin a 2 month old character's day by popping the drake he probably hasn't insured and can't afford to replace.

also, how many people's game has been ruined? if goons hadn't have said it happened i wouldn't have even noticed. what effect has it had on you? i'll wager it hasn't touched you in the slightest.

stop being so bitter and jealous.
Alexzandvar Douglass
Motiveless Malignity
Deepwater Hooligans
#92 - 2012-06-24 09:50:15 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Alexzandvar Douglass wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Alexzandvar Douglass wrote:
What happened, no matter how many goons tell you they were taking ISK out of the game, don't let it make you any less angry.

If they had been adding ISK to the game it would have off set the massive amounts they acquired, however they took trillions out of the Market and then helped take a ton of ISK and move it to their side.

Taking ISK out of the market just makes it better for them, so the money they hog will be worth even more.


less angry about what? them understanding the new FW mechanics better than you?


What I'm angry about is that a mechanic like this is able to ruin the fun for tons of other people.

You can't ruin the fun for everyone but you and justify it by saying "THE SANDBOX MAN!".


of course you can, that's exactly what people say when you ruin a 2 month old character's day by popping the drake he probably hasn't insured and can't afford to replace.

also, how many people's game has been ruined? if goons hadn't have said it happened i wouldn't have even noticed. what effect has it had on you? i'll wager it hasn't touched you in the slightest.

stop being so bitter and jealous.


I'm not bitter, I am happy being a Ice Miner/Ratter and I enjoy the nice profits I get during massive cap wars. I just don't see the point in why Goons did this, regardless of your stance on the issue they knew they would get there Wallets zeroed out.

What did they gain by doing this? Nothing except empty wallets, which is the funniest part.
Dave Stark
#93 - 2012-06-24 09:59:21 UTC
Alexzandvar Douglass wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Alexzandvar Douglass wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Alexzandvar Douglass wrote:
What happened, no matter how many goons tell you they were taking ISK out of the game, don't let it make you any less angry.

If they had been adding ISK to the game it would have off set the massive amounts they acquired, however they took trillions out of the Market and then helped take a ton of ISK and move it to their side.

Taking ISK out of the market just makes it better for them, so the money they hog will be worth even more.


less angry about what? them understanding the new FW mechanics better than you?


What I'm angry about is that a mechanic like this is able to ruin the fun for tons of other people.

You can't ruin the fun for everyone but you and justify it by saying "THE SANDBOX MAN!".


of course you can, that's exactly what people say when you ruin a 2 month old character's day by popping the drake he probably hasn't insured and can't afford to replace.

also, how many people's game has been ruined? if goons hadn't have said it happened i wouldn't have even noticed. what effect has it had on you? i'll wager it hasn't touched you in the slightest.

stop being so bitter and jealous.


I'm not bitter, I am happy being a Ice Miner/Ratter and I enjoy the nice profits I get during massive cap wars. I just don't see the point in why Goons did this, regardless of your stance on the issue they knew they would get there Wallets zeroed out.

What did they gain by doing this? Nothing except empty wallets, which is the funniest part.


nice to see you've read what's going on.
the wallets and assets are a temporary thing at the moment. on top of that; it was done to prevent a crash in the markets, not as a punishment towards the players.

also by the lack of comment on how it's effected you, it hasn't. hence your statement about ruining the game for everyone clearly doesn't stand up. in fact, it didn't stand up once i pointed out it didn't even affect me.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#94 - 2012-06-24 11:54:02 UTC
Barbara Nichole wrote:
Gaming Exploit: any action which deliberately abuses a gaming mechanic in an way not intended by the developer for an advantage over other players. Frankly, it was obvious that this was not the intended use of this mechanic.. Instead of immediately reporting the bug or problem they took the "bob" approach and exploited it.

How does this situation compare to, say, insurance frauding, buying and refining PA, or the whole PI debacle?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Gibbo3771
AQUILA INC
#95 - 2012-06-24 12:00:17 UTC
Xython wrote:
Beekeeper Bob wrote:
Exploit is Exploit....No matter how you color it
But i doubt anything serious will happen, CCP loves the Goonies too much....Cool



Please explain to me how using a poorly but intentionally designed game mechanic to it's breaking point is an Exploit.

Go ahead, I'll wait. If your answer is logically equivalent to "because Goons" we reserve the right to laugh at you.


Last time I checked knowingly using a faulty game mechanic to gain an advantage, without bug reporting it is an explot. Cover it in whatever shroud of shite you want. End of the day you spotted a faulty game mechanic, never reported it.

When is CCP going to realise theres still rules in a sandbox and if kids keep kicking over every ones sandcastle eventually a guardian has to step in and remove said kid and punish him.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#96 - 2012-06-24 12:48:11 UTC
Gibbo3771 wrote:
Last time I checked knowingly using a faulty game mechanic to gain an advantage, without bug reporting it is an explot.

Like insurance fraud, the whole PI and PA debacle, tracking titans and the like, of which nobody I've heard about have been even remotely punished?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Frying Doom
#97 - 2012-06-24 14:06:52 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Gibbo3771 wrote:
Last time I checked knowingly using a faulty game mechanic to gain an advantage, without bug reporting it is an explot.

Like insurance fraud, the whole PI and PA debacle, tracking titans and the like, of which nobody I've heard about have been even remotely punished?

Yes all very good past road signs of what NOT to do.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#98 - 2012-06-24 14:07:27 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Gibbo3771 wrote:
Last time I checked knowingly using a faulty game mechanic to gain an advantage, without bug reporting it is an explot.

Like insurance fraud, the whole PI and PA debacle, tracking titans and the like, of which nobody I've heard about have been even remotely punished?

Yes all very good past road signs of what NOT to do.

So when are the people who did that going to get their punishment, then?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#99 - 2012-06-24 14:09:43 UTC
So do we continue the 4x4 thread here now that its locked?

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Frying Doom
#100 - 2012-06-24 14:10:56 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Gibbo3771 wrote:
Last time I checked knowingly using a faulty game mechanic to gain an advantage, without bug reporting it is an explot.

Like insurance fraud, the whole PI and PA debacle, tracking titans and the like, of which nobody I've heard about have been even remotely punished?

Yes all very good past road signs of what NOT to do.

So when are the people who did that going to get their punishment, then?

The people who did that were smaller offenders and didn't smear CCP's face in it. The LP scam is worse than the POS guys ever did.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!