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Goons 4x4ing through the Sandbox - Market Manipulation on a Grand Scale

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Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#2941 - 2012-06-24 06:50:13 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:


The bank is made in such a way you can walk into te vault and make off with the money. You do this, swagger to the police station, show them the money and brag and are pissed when they take it.



I like the bank analogy tho lol

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#2942 - 2012-06-24 06:52:28 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:

I thought Malkavians were liberated by such construct as respect of person and possession. Hell, don't you think you are the enemy half the time when you're a Malk?!?

Evil


Depends On the individual. Im saving the universe from the evil that are oranges.
I have a whole speech prepared on how they take over your mind with the juicy (supposed) goodness that you eat/drink and it shifts your conscousness towards pro orange agendas.

The only REAL problem I have is the lack of an ability to sleep and the random voices saying stuff that distracts me from what Im attempting to do at the time. Its extremely annoying given that I KNOW they dont actually exist yet even KNOWING THAT I cant just writ them off cause they tell me important things.

Yeah plus they grow in sunshine and wither in your presence, so...

I totally take your point. Oh did you hear Abraham Lincoln was a vampire hunter?!?

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#2943 - 2012-06-24 06:54:21 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:

I thought Malkavians were liberated by such construct as respect of person and possession. Hell, don't you think you are the enemy half the time when you're a Malk?!?

Evil


Depends On the individual. Im saving the universe from the evil that are oranges.
I have a whole speech prepared on how they take over your mind with the juicy (supposed) goodness that you eat/drink and it shifts your conscousness towards pro orange agendas.

The only REAL problem I have is the lack of an ability to sleep and the random voices saying stuff that distracts me from what Im attempting to do at the time. Its extremely annoying given that I KNOW they dont actually exist yet even KNOWING THAT I cant just writ them off cause they tell me important things.

Yeah plus they grow in sunshine and wither in your presence, so...

I totally take your point. Oh did you hear Abraham Lincoln was a vampire hunter?!?


Isn't sanity just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean, all you get is that one trick--rational thinking--but when you're good and crazy, well, the sky's the limit! ~The Tick

So Ive heard, its just Masquerade. He is a Ventrue

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#2944 - 2012-06-24 06:57:03 UTC
Graic Gabtar wrote:
Earthquake.


Shame on you to offend those who died and those who now are homeless just to show snarky on the internets.


Graic Gabtar wrote:

An exploit is when you magically create something out of thin air like your 100M dollars - it didn't exist.

This wealth wasn't created by magic. There was a hypothesis, a plan and then its execution that worked legally within the bounds of CCP's game mechanics. CCP have already confirmed nothing that this so called "Jewbal" did was wrong.


I don't know in which alternate universe you live, but in mine ATM are pre-loaded with physical bank notes therefore they don't create them "out of thin air" and they do exist.
The using of those buttons to take out tons of money was also an hypothesis, a plan and its execution and worked legally (ATM does not get forced, just "used" in its functionality).

Also, CCP in the person of their official security personnel confirmed it's an abuse. From Ab-usus that is use inappropriately. Does not mean it's wrong, it means it was used wrong.

Hopefully CCP Sreegs will see your misrepresentation of his words and act accordingly on your posting rights, including for your sad joking on a disgrace happened in my country.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2945 - 2012-06-24 06:57:12 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
So Ive heard, its just Masquerade. He is a Ventrue

I lol'ed at this!

Sugar Von MurdererTits : Jake Warbird gets my vote for most intriguing and attractive male character in Eve.
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#2946 - 2012-06-24 07:15:13 UTC  |  Edited by: corestwo
Maestro Antollare wrote:
pretend this is any other game - i find an item i can buy from an npc that sells to that same npc for more than i originally paid to buy it, use that to max out my gold, isk, w/e, then tell the devs about it

yes, the devs should have seen it, but it was obviously not intended to do what i used it for


Depends on the devs. I've heard exactly what you described (well, close) happened in EQ 2 or something, and SOE flipped out and banned. On the other hand, I've heard something like it happened in LOTR Online and the devs there went "yep, our fault" and simply fixed it and moved on.

CCP used to be like the latter example.

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

You can build a skyscraper with perfect sub-components, perfect materials, in the best place and... bork the structural calculations so it crumbles after 2 weeks. Individual parts worked exactly as intended but now it's a pile of dirt.

I know what you're trying to say, mostly because you've said it again and again, but...your example sucks, because if you "bork the structural calculations" then individual parts were not, in fact, working as intended. P

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#2947 - 2012-06-24 07:16:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
[quote=Cahvus]
So now we are supposed to be mind-readers of CCP devs to figure out what they intended? We had the Dev blog, we had it on SISI, we had people questioning/telling devs on the forums, everything pointed to the fact that this was, what was intended. Goons figured it out and Goons capitalized on it, I say good for them. Everything they did was within the rules and mechanics of the game, as presented to us. Now that this type of manipulation is considered an exploit, it shouldn't happen any more, end of story. Give them their stuff back and lets move on, the market will work itself out eventually in a few years.


Do you come from another planet? No, you come from those countries with no moral values where "IF I CAN DO IT, I WILL DO IT" until somebody physically removes you the ability to do something OBVIOUS to be an abuse.

You are insulting everybody's intelligence if you really believe that it takes to be mind readers for not understanding this whole plan was a giant abuse and not just some innocent coincidence.

The very "the market will work itself out eventually in a few years" is the symbol of the immeasurable damage done to a whole video game made for the hundreds of thousands, who will be adversely affected for years (if not rolled back). It's is also a massive CCP investment loss over a feature (FW) they worked for half a year to revamp just to see it made into a farce.
Sure CCP bears its good blame on that, but still, the damage was done on them, with active purpose to damage them.

In every single other MMO, even the sandbox ones, they'd have been insta-permabanned for much, much less than this.

So stop tickling CCP's patience, because they can do whatever, wherever and whenever on all the involved players possessions and playing rights.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
#2948 - 2012-06-24 07:18:17 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Graic Gabtar wrote:
Earthquake.


Shame on you to offend those who died and those who now are homeless just to show snarky on the internets.


Graic Gabtar wrote:

An exploit is when you magically create something out of thin air like your 100M dollars - it didn't exist.

This wealth wasn't created by magic. There was a hypothesis, a plan and then its execution that worked legally within the bounds of CCP's game mechanics. CCP have already confirmed nothing that this so called "Jewbal" did was wrong.


I don't know in which alternate universe you live, but in mine ATM are pre-loaded with physical bank notes therefore they don't create them "out of thin air" and they do exist.
The using of those buttons to take out tons of money was also an hypothesis, a plan and its execution and worked legally (ATM does not get forced, just "used" in its functionality).

Also, CCP in the person of their official security personnel confirmed it's an abuse. From Ab-usus that is use inappropriately. Does not mean it's wrong, it means it was used wrong.

Hopefully CCP Sreegs will see your misrepresentation of his words and act accordingly on your posting rights, including for your sad joking on a disgrace happened in my country.
Yours have been the best tears in this thread so far by a country mile.

You're the one bringing your crappy real life into the world of EVE. My personal feelings are that I don't rate some of your old crumbling buildings over starving African babies so just deal with it pretty girl.

I can see you are struggling with this but whether the ATM was full or empty is irrelevant and your analogy sucks accordingly.

They didn't magic an account balance, nor trick a device into spitting out endless notes. They used all the in-game mechanics available to them.

Besides outplay CCP hubris I'm still failing to see what these people did besides realize CCP fail at basis statistics.

I'm seeing a CCP staffer lash out in all sorts of ways, preempt their "investigation" and even describe the words of a colleague as good for toilet paper. Hardly encouraging a rational view.

I will make one prediction though. I doubt this "investigation" will examine CCP's own failings at acknowledging the warning signs. It will simply be dedicated to drafting new rules.

So instead of sitting here my little cupcake and making threats about me being banned why don't you get off your high horse, go outside and do something for all those ten or so people who lost garden gnomes instead of lecturing people in computer games about the inhumanity of people.

******* hypocrite.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2949 - 2012-06-24 07:21:55 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
The very "the market will work itself out eventually in a few years" is the symbol of the immeasurable damage done to a whole video game made for the hundreds of thousands, who will be adversely affected for years (if not rolled back). It's is also a massive CCP investment loss over a feature (FW) they worked for half a year to revamp just to see it made into a farce.
Sure CCP bears its good blame on that, but still, the damage was done on them, with active purpose to damage them.

In every single other MMO, even the sandbox ones, they'd have been insta-permabanned for much, much less than this.

So stop tickling CCP's patience, because they can do whatever, wherever and whenever on all the involved players possessions and playing rights.


so you're saying that market manipulation should be bannable

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Cerebral Wolf
N.A.G.A Too
Domain Research and Mining Inst.
#2950 - 2012-06-24 07:22:58 UTC
Maestro Antollare wrote:
Cerebral Wolf wrote:
Whats with the stupid bank analogy you all need to share? Can't you use your own special snowflake one or can you not think of your own?...



ok, sure

let's say you read the patch notes for your favorite game and notice an interesting loophole in the patch notes

you test and confirm your discovery in game, and use it to accumulate a significant amount of wealth

the devs discover the loophole, and patch it

you find the patch didn't fully correct the loophole, and adjust your plan to compensate

after you're tired of using the loophole, you make a bombastic post on the forums telling the devs and other players what idiots they are for not seeing it sooner

tears flow in copious amounts


Thats not an analogy is it?...thats an explanation.


Antisocial Malkavian wrote:


By that logic when we get bored and blow each other up in VFK knowing we'll make a profit on insurance its an exploit.


oh come on you CANT ACTUALLY be that stupid, quit pretending

you REALLY cant tell the difference? REALLY?

How did you get past the learning curve?

[/quote]

Eve has a learning curve?
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#2951 - 2012-06-24 07:23:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Antisocial Malkavian
corestwo wrote:
Maestro Antollare wrote:
pretend this is any other game - i find an item i can buy from an npc that sells to that same npc for more than i originally paid to buy it, use that to max out my gold, isk, w/e, then tell the devs about it

yes, the devs should have seen it, but it was obviously not intended to do what i used it for


Depends on the devs. I've heard exactly what you described (well, close) happened in EQ 2 or something, and SOE flipped out and banned. On the other hand, I've heard something like it happened in LOTR Online and the devs there went "yep, our fault" and simply fixed it and moved on.

CCP used to be like the latter example.


Thought CCP USED to be HTFU and HTFU here would what they say to you after you lose 5 tril to exploiting.

Cerebral Wolf wrote:



Antisocial Malkavian wrote:


By that logic when we get bored and blow each other up in VFK knowing we'll make a profit on insurance its an exploit.


oh come on you CANT ACTUALLY be that stupid, quit pretending

you REALLY cant tell the difference? REALLY?

How did you get past the learning curve?



Eve has a learning curve?
[/quote]
yeah historically too:

http://www.google.com/search?q=eve+learning+curve&hl=en&safe=off&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=lsDmT9_gAobk9ASgvNm-AQ&sqi=2&ved=0CGAQsAQ&biw=1920&bih=898

theres a whole lot of that one graph lol

Richard Desturned wrote:


so you're saying that market manipulation should be bannable


technically you Goons said it first some 20 or so pages ago

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#2952 - 2012-06-24 07:31:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
technically you Goons said it first some 20 or so pages ago

Look let's look at this from the other angle OK?

99.44%* of Goon transactions purveying anything faction are scams.

Yet in this "exploit" the customers got real merchandise every single time.

And they gladly gave their money for the items, because they were quite affordable.

A large amount of ISK was also destroyed.

What's the problem here, again?








[edit: * That might be the percentage of pure soap in Ivory, I'm not sure.]

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#2953 - 2012-06-24 07:34:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Antisocial Malkavian
Darth Gustav wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
technically you Goons said it first some 20 or so pages ago

Look let's look at this from the other angle OK?

99.44%* of Goon transactions purveying anything faction are scams.

Yet in this "exploit" the customers got real merchandise every single time.

And they gladly gave their money for the items, because they were quite affordable.

A large amount of ISK was also destroyed.

What's the problem here, again?








[edit: * That might be the percentage of pure soap in Ivory, I'm not sure.]


Never said there WAS a problem (well not in that quote anyways) I pointed out I thin the first people to talk about market manipulation being illegal now or bannable or something (its 3 am im tired) WERE the Goons in this thread lol

As far as the whole issue goes I go with what CCP says. They made the game, they should know what they intended etc.

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Cerebral Wolf
N.A.G.A Too
Domain Research and Mining Inst.
#2954 - 2012-06-24 07:34:56 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
technically you Goons said it first some 20 or so pages ago

Look let's look at this from the other angle OK?

99.44%* of Goon transactions purveying anything faction are scams.

Yet in this "exploit" the customers got real merchandise every single time.

And they gladly gave their money for the items, because they were quite affordable.

A large amount of ISK was also destroyed.

What's the problem here, again?


[edit: * That might be the percentage of pure soap in Ivory, I'm not sure.]



CCP having egg on their face i think.
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#2955 - 2012-06-24 07:36:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Antisocial Malkavian
Cerebral Wolf wrote:



CCP having egg on their face i think.


Yeah that, plus the bragging and rubbing their faces IN it. Straw that broke the camel's back and all imo

It is extremely funny how sperging publord you guys get over a slap on the wrist.
every time

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#2956 - 2012-06-24 07:36:57 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
technically you Goons said it first some 20 or so pages ago

Look let's look at this from the other angle OK?

99.44%* of Goon transactions purveying anything faction are scams.

Yet in this "exploit" the customers got real merchandise every single time.

And they gladly gave their money for the items, because they were quite affordable.

A large amount of ISK was also destroyed.

What's the problem here, again?








[edit: * That might be the percentage of pure soap in Ivory, I'm not sure.]


Never said there WAS a problem (well not in that quote anyways) I pointed out I thin the first people to talk about market manipulation being illegal now or bannable or something (its 3 am im tired) WERE the Goons in this thread lol

As far as the whole issue goes I go with what CCP says. They made the game, they should know what they intended etc.

Fair enough. I just thought that this frame of reference at least bore mentioning. After all, it's true.

These legions of people were actual happy Goonswarm customers.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Betrinna Cantis
#2957 - 2012-06-24 07:37:35 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:

You forgot Mechwarrior online where the Goons themselves are going.

Including notable ones

http://mwomercs.com/forums/user/22079-the-mittani/



Yeah, but I've found goons and test in World of Tanks as well. They likey their tank pew pew.

WoT is awesome. I kill everyone Goon or no Goon. Nice break from the Bulls#!t here sometimes...

Alts have been changed to protect the Innocent. You may have mistaken me for someone who cares.....
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#2958 - 2012-06-24 07:38:08 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
technically you Goons said it first some 20 or so pages ago

Look let's look at this from the other angle OK?

99.44%* of Goon transactions purveying anything faction are scams.

Yet in this "exploit" the customers got real merchandise every single time.

And they gladly gave their money for the items, because they were quite affordable.

A large amount of ISK was also destroyed.

What's the problem here, again?


Ahem. While I appreciate your attempts to defend us with this analogy, I find it distasteful as I was formerly the largest contract dealer of 0.0 faction goods in Eve, and none of my contracts for faction goods were scams. How dare you impunge my honour, good sir!

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#2959 - 2012-06-24 07:40:15 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
actual happy Goonswarm customers.


idiot and their money are soon parted


well more specifically it should be idiots that WILL soon be parted with their money but you know what they did wrong on this? EXACTLY what you said.

Im betting HAD they scammed the **** out of those marks, the marks would have effectively gone "eh, its Goons whatta you expect" instead of "rabblerabblerabble"

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#2960 - 2012-06-24 07:43:08 UTC
corestwo wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
technically you Goons said it first some 20 or so pages ago

Look let's look at this from the other angle OK?

99.44%* of Goon transactions purveying anything faction are scams.

Yet in this "exploit" the customers got real merchandise every single time.

And they gladly gave their money for the items, because they were quite affordable.

A large amount of ISK was also destroyed.

What's the problem here, again?


Ahem. While I appreciate your attempts to defend us with this analogy, I find it distasteful as I was formerly the largest contract dealer of 0.0 faction goods in Eve, and none of my contracts for faction goods were scams. How dare you impunge my honour, good sir!

I apologize, but you must admit your fellow...ahem...Goon competitors had a lower cost of doing business, even if it meant their...um...volume...was um...slightly lower than yours. Evil

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom