Player Features and Ideas Discussion

The only reason the Amarr HP bonus doesn't work is because the entire ship is a bad design, not because the HP bonus is a bad idea. Example: the Abaddon would work just as well with an armor HP bonus per level instead of a resist bonus. True, Amarr have always traditionally had resist bonuses, but again, that's poor game design by CCP, if CCP wants Gallente to be more focused on active tanking. Resist bonuses maximize the efficiency of active tanking and as such the bonus should be applied to ships who are intended to active tank. This is the entire point of this thread: CCP is mixing concepts with the wrong bonus structure to get the job done, and as a result as ships that aren't really good at what they're intended for. At least how it is described to us by CCP.

So, my idea is to ignore "how things have always been" with respect to actual bonuses, and take a look at the overall concept of what each race is really about (as per the CCP vision) and then apply bonuses for each race that actually make sense and advance that vision.

Okay, let's start from the top...

One good reason that Caldari should be the "range race"- 1) because CCP said so. 2) because it's a good theme and one race out of the four should use it. 3) it's traditionally been Caldari's niche from the beginning.

I'm not "shoehorning" anything. Caldari doesn't have a "brawler"? 1) that's not exactly true. HAM Drake anyone? 2) maybe every race doesn't get to have every type of role for every class of ship; that's kind of the point isn't it? To have a clear choice? If you like range/missiles, go Caldari. If you like brutal damage and drones, go Gallente. Right now, if you really wanted to, you can do almost anything, with any race, because CCP has watered down all of them with a bunch of crossover and hybrid designs.

regarding your comments about Amarr fitting cap boosters, Minmatar having shield bonuses etc. Yes, yes, I know exactly how things are designed at the moment. The entire point of this thread is to consider the idea of simply ignoring conventional wisdom and designing with a clean sheet. Given the core design concepts of speed and maximum versatility, what would the ideal Minmatar ship designs really look like? What about Amarr? Let's set aside for a minute all the traditional ideas of how the ship bonuses have been applied and look at the core concepts/ideas of what each race is really about, and then examine what bonuses would really best suit those roles.

Oh, and while we're at it, if I have anything to say about it, there will never be any such thing as a laser cap use reduction bonus. That's a non-"bonus" if I've ever seen one.

I don't think I'm contradicting myself- I'm saying let's revisit the bonuses and ship design, not the racial themes. I think that the racial themes are good and that the ship designs should be more in line with that.

Where does CCP talk about racial themes? In the ship descriptions, in the new player experience, initial character creation... how else would the general consensus get to where it is today?

I think that a combat doctrine centered around long range combat could be really good. It's just that (in my opinion) CCP hasn't done a good enough job at designing the ships properly. The Naga is the latest example of CCP's ship design, and reflects a new generation of game designers at work. I think that they're superior to the prior bunch, as the Naga is a very successful design.

On removing laser cap use bonus: yes, you read me right. :)


I'm not against Caldari having some short ranged "in your face" ships. But I don't think they should be blaster based. How about HAM and rocket based? Torp based? If both Caldari and Gallente were equally suited to blasters, what would be the point? Where is the diversity? I fly Caldari just as well as Gallente. I want Caldari to do it's role very well, and likewise with Gallente, but I don't want to basically be able to do everything with everything. Then it doesn't matter what choice you make.

Forcing Amarr to buffer tank by giving appropriate bonuses is extremely stupid. Game shouldn't even force you doing fun things, let alone boring and primitive.

You must be kidding here - missing all the whine Gallente get on their active bonuses and then proposing something equally bad (pre-defined) for another race? Really?

Would you consider going nuts then and proposing pre-fitted ships with no fitting options whatsoever?

T3s are supposed to be worse than their T2 brothers in the specific areas. T3s are about versatility.


In fact, the Legion is near perfectly balanced, while the other T3s are OP based on CCPs little graph of their design philosophy.

I'd be happy leaving Amarr/Minmatar E-War as-is, and swapping Caldari/Gallente. I've simply used damps and ECM too much to leave it the other way around.

I have used damps extensively, even after they were nerfed into the ground. I find them extremely useful and effective, particularly in combination with the extended range points on the Lachesis/Arazu. The issue here is racial weapons in combination with the E-War. The Lachesis works great when it is fitted with heavy missile launchers, as the missiles don't suffer from optimal, fall off or tracking. By the time I'm in blaster range, damps are all but useless. ECM however works just fine at blaster range.

I'd gladly swap (buffed) damps and long range point for ECM and blasters. Or make all damp ships (Celestis, Keres, Lachesis, Arazu) pure missile ships. But aren't missiles supposed to be Caldari? Again, this is the point of the whole thread: the racial bonuses are mixed up, the ship designs don't work well due to conflicting benefits/weaknesses of the combined features. The original game designers didn't know what they were doing. And now we have the opportunity to fix some glaring mistakes while each ship is revised and redesigned.

The problem with your assumptions is that ECM is only really viable on particular ships that are bonused for it, while tracking disruption, webbing, neutering/nos works for everybody, even solo. Even sensor damps are viable in unbonused ships, depending on your fit, althought they could use a buff too.

The REAL issue is that in the past ECM and sensor damps were way OP so CCP nerfed the hell out of it, which in turn completely broke the game design. Now all fits are just the same (web + scram), the game turns into a numbers game and fights are predictable. There's no surprise factor anymore for small fleets, or even solo, because variety of EWAR is not viable.

Like having a Loki with you? Buying Faction modules? Flying a Recon?

Not meaning to jump into this rather interesting discussion in an attempt to derail the thread, but has anyone considered the economic aspects for race differentiation?

For example the Minmatar have duct-tape-and-good-intentions ships that should on the face off it, cost wayyy less than thier Shiny Amarr counterparts. Also as consequence of this they have the most versatilty when it comes to fittings.

Caldari may have some of the most expensive shield ships (with the bonuses to match), Amarr the most expensive Armor ships, Gallente somewhere in between.

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With specific aspects to racial bonuses here is my suggestion:

Get rid of SPACESHIP COMMAND Skill and Replace with RACE SPECIFIC Spaceship command (3x training multiplier)

Then Provide 1 META level racial bonus for all four race irrespective of race ship class / type.

For example:

Amarr ships would get a 2% bonus to Capacitor recharge and Cap amount per ship level.
Caldari ships would get a 2% bonus to Grav Sensor Strenght and Missile Range per ship level.
Gallente ships would get a 2% damage bonus to Sensor Resolution and Hybrid Falloff per ship level.
Minmatar ships would get a 2% bonus to Projectile Tracking and Optimals per ship level

Lets take the Executioner and Maller as very rough examples.

I have flown Execs as a tackler because IMO, its the best T1 frigate for tackling in terms of speed, agility and cost effectiveness. Nevertheless I never fit lasers on it, but Mini ACs since I know that the cap will be used for MWDs and points.

The Maller is the toughest Cruiser there is but suffers from Cap simply because even with the 10% bonus to Cap usage its ability to become an inclose brawler is somewhat neutralized by the fact that any any Med or large Neut ship is going to suck it dry pretty fast (Neuting Domis - ugh).

Currently without Skills Executioner has 187.5GJ Cap and Maller 1500GJ. Setting aside all Cap skills for the moment, and having Amarr Spaceship command @ 5, which would have a 10% bonus to Cap, we would have 206 Cap for the Executioner and 1650 Cap for the Maller. This would make Amarr pretty resilient against thier own EW, while providing a much needed boost to cap heavy PvP fits.
This would make most players specialize in one or two racial variants in terms of time investment for the neccessary Racial bonuses, while at the same time incentiving them to do so.

EDIT: Thought about for a moment and so I redid the bonuses.