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Goons 4x4ing through the Sandbox - Market Manipulation on a Grand Scale

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Shai 'Hulud
#2801 - 2012-06-23 23:21:35 UTC
Shai 'Hulud wrote:
It seems the new "golden rule" is: If an activity is profitable you should check with CCP to make sure it's not considered an exploit.

Although I'm not sure this will help with their recently established trend of punishing players for breaking rules that had not been in place at the time of the "crime"

The most useful slaves are those that believe themselves to be free
Enaris Kerle
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2802 - 2012-06-23 23:24:16 UTC
Andrea Roche wrote:
Its not. EULA says that if exploting game mechanic = ban
That includes also "design flaw" since at the end of all its all written in code and exploting a game mechanic is also exploiting a game flaw. Which in all it means is : goons exploted a game mechanic by exploting a design flaw

That defrauding the in-game insurance was profitable wasn't an intended mechanic.

Yet I don't remember hearing about CCP taking any action (aside obviously from patching it out).

Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm.
Shai 'Hulud
#2803 - 2012-06-23 23:25:01 UTC
Andrea Roche wrote:
Shai 'Hulud wrote:
It seems the new "golden rule" is: If an activity is profitable you should check with CCP to make sure it's not considered an exploit.


Its not. EULA says that if exploting game mechanic = ban
That includes also "design flaw" since at the end of all its all written in code and exploting a game mechanic is also exploiting a game flaw. Which in all it means is : goons exploited a game mechanic by exploting a design flaw

This was only different from the pax for cheap nocx trick in the order of complexity. Gains from the pax trick were not rolled back, the game mechanic was simply adjusted.

The most useful slaves are those that believe themselves to be free
Machete Visor
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2804 - 2012-06-23 23:27:40 UTC
Think there is precedent for taking away ill gotten gains (ask aharm). No idea why they didn't fix PI ...

Anyway, simple punishment - take away everything but the faction bpc.
To monetize they will collapse the price. Offsets the gains
And cheap shiny Minnie ships for all...
Isphirel
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2805 - 2012-06-23 23:29:06 UTC
Andrea Roche wrote:

Its not. EULA says that if exploting game mechanic = ban
That includes also "design flaw" since at the end of all its all written in code and exploting a game mechanic is also exploiting a game flaw. Which in all it means is : goons exploited a game mechanic by exploting a design flaw


I was gonna give you the benefit of the doubt on your crappy tautology there but my curiosity got the better of me and it turns out that the EULA doesn't contain either of the words "exploit" or "mechanic", so you're gonna have to step down from your high horse and explain what you mean by "exploiting a game mechanic" other than "making money faster than hisec miners do", and why you think it is a ~bad thing~.
Enaris Kerle
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2806 - 2012-06-23 23:31:52 UTC
Machete Visor wrote:
Think there is precedent for taking away ill gotten gains (ask aharm). No idea why they didn't fix PI ....

Infinite WH tracking is entirely different. I've explained repeatedly how there's a difference between faulty design (using player-influenced market values to set payouts) and faulty code (underflowing a variable so you get huge numbers).

Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm.
Ravan Hekki
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2807 - 2012-06-23 23:33:41 UTC
well done, that is actualy clever, sandboxy and awsome. Also very, very , very funny.
Isphirel
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2808 - 2012-06-23 23:37:58 UTC
If you can't tell the qualitative difference between "exploiting" it when some underpaid overworked coder didn't implement all the necessary sanity checks to make the game not blow up, and "exploiting" it when the game functions literally exactly as designed, expected, described in the patch notes and discussed on the forums before the patch hit, you probably should stay away from the market in your own interest.
Salient Soldier
#2809 - 2012-06-23 23:39:16 UTC
SERVER RESET GO!
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2810 - 2012-06-23 23:42:13 UTC
I'm about to shoot someone hostile to me, should I check first with a GM whether this is still allowed?

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Frederick Sanger
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2811 - 2012-06-23 23:42:34 UTC
Imbeciles who cannot read / understand EULA who are blinded by their hatred of their betters want to ban the content creators ITT. Typical Saturday on Eve-o.
InternetSpaceship
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2812 - 2012-06-23 23:43:25 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:

Goon tears best tears.


The people affected by this have acted pretty calm so far. I don't see where all these tears are. If you want tears, go find a goon "I'm quitting eve forever!!!" thread to mock.

Official Recruiter for GoonSwarm Corporation.

If you paid isk to get into GoonSwarm, you were probably scammed.  If you had the foresight to save the name of your scammer, let me know and I'll do what I can to help you.
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#2813 - 2012-06-23 23:49:56 UTC
InternetSpaceship wrote:
If you want tears, go find a goon "I'm quitting eve forever!!!" thread to mock.



Only if mittens wrote it.
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#2814 - 2012-06-23 23:52:01 UTC
Shai 'Hulud wrote:

It seems the new "golden rule" is: If an activity is profitable you should check with CCP to make sure it's not considered an exploit.



Well, if you find a way to make a trillion isk an hour profit on it, you may want to check that, yeah.
Enaris Kerle
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2815 - 2012-06-23 23:54:20 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Well, if you find a way to make a trillion isk an hour profit on it, you may want to check that, yeah.

It wasn't a trillion per hour profit though? The whole thing happened over a couple of weeks.

Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm.
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#2816 - 2012-06-23 23:56:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Cygnet Lythanea
Enaris Kerle wrote:
Machete Visor wrote:
Think there is precedent for taking away ill gotten gains (ask aharm). No idea why they didn't fix PI ....

Infinite WH tracking is entirely different. I've explained repeatedly how there's a difference between faulty design (using player-influenced market values to set payouts) and faulty code (underflowing a variable so you get huge numbers).


The problem with your logic there is that the EULA does not differentiate between a designer and a programmer being the origin. It just says 'exploit' and this is, quite glaringly, one, regardless of how it came to be.

The other item is: How many of those other exploits were dumb enough to go into the forum and use them to make CCP look bad?


Enaris Kerle wrote:
It wasn't a trillion per hour profit though? The whole thing happened over a couple of weeks.

I was using dramatic impact to underline my point. Though it's still a lot shorter than goonswarm in it's entirety could make the same profit.



BTW: all the tears from certain members of goonswarm made me feel so warm and fuzzy I got a puppy today. He is very cute but I'm still working on a name.

What do you think of Vlad?
Xython
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2817 - 2012-06-24 00:04:24 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
I'm about to shoot someone hostile to me, should I check first with a GM whether this is still allowed?
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#2818 - 2012-06-24 00:05:15 UTC
Machete Visor wrote:
Think there is precedent for taking away ill gotten gains (ask aharm). No idea why they didn't fix PI ...

Anyway, simple punishment - take away everything but the faction bpc.
To monetize they will collapse the price. Offsets the gains
And cheap shiny Minnie ships for all...


But there was no punishment

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Enaris Kerle
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2819 - 2012-06-24 00:05:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Enaris Kerle
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
The problem with your logic there is that the EULA does not differentiate between a designer and a programmer being the origin.

While the EULA may not, up until now CCP did. This is a change in the way they handled these alleged "exploits" so far, and that is in fact the whole reason for at least 130 of the existing pages in this thread (I forgot when reports of asset seizure were posted first).

Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm.
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#2820 - 2012-06-24 00:08:06 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
I'm about to shoot someone hostile to me, should I check first with a GM whether this is still allowed?


Yes, do that. Every time.

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.