Player Features and Ideas Discussion

yeah, jump freighters are OP especially in fleets

As a frequent user of a jump freighter they're very nice. If something were to be nerfed it should be the mechanic of jumping to a cyno in general. Decreased range, stricter ship limitations, etc. I'm thinking mostly of hotdrops in my mind as one thing that is wrong with current mechanics. Changing them to transport style would make things interesting, probably see alot more heavy interdictors running around lowsec then though.

Simi I respect your vigor and the way that you present your argument.

With that in mind I would like to discuss the real logistical needs of some of the most remote regions in the game. While it is true that much of what jump frieghters move is minerals and mods, there is a large amount of ships moved via JF as well. 6 packaged battleships with fittings and rigs can be moved by JF, while a carrier can only carry 2 with little room for any other ships. When logistic chains get to 2-3 Carrier/JF jumps the burden of logistics can drive corporate logistical directors to insanity.

If the JF's were nerfed or lost their jump drive capabilities the deep space regions of the cluster would be unlivable due to the fact that there would be no realistic way to achieve supply routes without literally stationing titans at jump points or owning all the space from empire to the edge and setting up an extensive Jump Bridge system. You may cry fowl because it's too easy, but they have a role. Massive alliances would have little issue setting up titans for supply chains but smaller entities wouldn't even attempt it.

Moving in this direction would only proliferate the NAPfest that is already rampant in the cluster, while it may be a 'cute' idea that it could return to the way it was, in practice it would drive people away from fighting. People want to play the fun parts of Eve, because Eve is a game not a second job that you pay someone for. JF's capabilities are fine, the cargohold is balanced for the fuel that it uses and the range it has. Has JF's changed the way the game is played forever; yes, but I don't think that the direction that the game went after that is a bad thing.

I must disagree with you and Nick... I don't think Simi want to nerf JF's out of usefullness, but recognizes they are too safe, and wishes to make their use more balanced. Let's be frank: JF makes moving cargo just tooo damn easy. Carriers too for that matter!!!

Personally, I thought hte JB nerf was almost perfect... forcing people to use gates between bridges was primarily not about increasing the time to travel between destinations, it was about increasing the risk factor while traveling across nullsec. Warping from JB at deathstar POS directly to another JB at deathstar POS was just too safe. Likewise, undocking and jumping out to a cyno sitting at zero on a station is just too safe. So how do we fix this???

IMO, the most viable nerf I can think, is to remove the ability to cyno within dock range of a Station, within jump range of a stargate, or overtly close to a POS's shields. This is a subtle nerf that does increase the workload on logistics. To logistics pilots, I am sorry, but I really think its for the game's benefit!!!

Something to note: Jump Bridges and Jump Mechanics really make EvE smaller. Few nullsec groups actually build stuff in nullsec (excluding caps). There's no reason to when you can cyno in 300k m3 from jita to the far reaches of nullsec without any significant risk. Please note, logistics aren't the only reason for this, as every aspect of industry is much, much more profitable to do in highsec (better refine rates, safer environment, more industry slots, easier access to materials, and many, many more customers. <<---- Industry is just ass-backwards on the risk vs reward paradigm!!! ).

Hehe, np, some interesting ideas for new freighters :)

Anyway my issue isn't really with freighters, it's with jump freighters and specifically how easy it is to minimize any risk and create invulnerable logistics routes.

Currently it is possible to export large volumes of expensive goods not only quickly, but also without any appreciable risk. This isn't a good thing IMHO.

But, as I stated in thus thread I'd much rather see jump freighters repurposed to near risk free hauling than have them arbitrarily nerfed in terms of fuel consumption or cargo capacity. Or you could alter their jump mechanic, but that's a bit tricky to do.

Remove the things from low sec.

Force people to move **** manually around it, would make big kills viable down there again.

I actually see this as more evidence that JF (and EVE logistics in general) are too powerful.

Reading between the lines, you're essentially saying that even people in deep null-sec need to buy everything in high-sec. Supply-lines stretching half-way across the galaxy are just taken for granted in EVE. Local production is unnecessary, because everything travels through Jita. You're entirely correct that nerfing JFs would make keeping those supply lines running a nightmare - but that begs the question of whether those supply lines should even exist at all.

Why is it 'right' for even people in deep null-sec to find it easier to buy their stuff in Jita than set up local production lines? Why shouldn't moving supplies half-way across the galaxy be difficult enough that people only do it when there's absolutely no other option?

(Admittedly, null-sec industry sounds like it's in such a horrible state right now that those regions couldn't be self-sufficient without external supplies, but that's a sign that null-sec's industrial infrastructure is broken, not that easy logistics is good for the game. "It's a good workaround for this other broken mechanic" isn't the most persuasive argument for whether a feature is actually a good thing.)

Seriously? All you have to do is undock, warp to gate. If you're using it to haul relatively low-volume/high value goods you can even move them the rest of the way in a cov ops, having skipped all the bubble camps in null.


Both JFs and Freighters have insanely high EHP, 300k+ on my Ark IIRC. And I'm aware of the cost of the JFs, I own one. Which is why I've said multiple times in the thread I'd prefer to see their role changed rather than nerfed into the ground.

Not being able to fit mods is also something of a moot point when they have 350k EHP without them, and don't have to worry about running through camps.


Why would you ever need to buy a new jump freighter? And the cost isn't that bad, ~half the price of a travel fit super. Or 6-7x the price of your average PvE Tengu.

And why don't things need to be done to JFs? Please tell me you aren't one of those ~separate PvE and PvP~ people.

the argument about local nullsec production being neigh nonexistent due to the ease with which materiel is moved from jita is a valid one. i don't want freighter CTAs back, they take forever and most of the time they're completely event-less. pvp does not happen often when the "target of opportunity" doesn't look as opportune because it is well guarded.

so, i'm in favor of increasing the cost of all kinds of jumping (capital jumpdrives, jumpbridges, titan bridges. covert bridges to a lesser extent due to their limited nature) to the point where a jump may not be the best solution for every problem.
move your new t2 cruiser up from empire? using the jumpbridge network is damn expensive? might as well risk this one by taking the scenic route.
make the fuel cost scale with the amount of cargo carried, to the point where it is cheaper to move an empty JF back to nullsec than to carry low value junk (e.g. item-compressed tritanium or t1 ships/modules).
i wouldn't mind hot-dropping being expensive enough to be considered for high-value targets only. lets be honest here, being in a fleet on standby at a titan bridge isnt exactly thrilling gameplay. oh wait, thats only done with "combat alts" anyways.

caveats: if you increase fuel consumption, you have to revisit fuelbay sizes. if you nerf ice mining, you mess with POS towers.

mildly related note: alliances should be able to bill people that use jumpbridges without bringing their own fuel.

Yeah I'd rather not see JFs removed, but altered to become something that is relatively risk-free if still time consuming hauling:


A kind of black-ops freighter if you will, that can be moved with relative ease with only a small fleet or a scout and would only die either to very, very good gate camps missed by the scout or due to excessive pilot stupidity.


I agree JF logistics aren't the primary issue with null sec industry, and that any changes to JFs would have to come after CCP's planned null sec industry revamp. But that is something that is supposedly coming in the near(ish) future, and I think JFs are something that are worthy of discussion in the meantime.