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Goons 4x4ing through the Sandbox - Market Manipulation on a Grand Scale

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Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#2781 - 2012-06-23 22:44:24 UTC
corestwo wrote:

It's not as though anything I do will change CCP's judgement in the end, one way or another. Hard to be desperate when you can't change the outcome.


Actually that's usually when people are most desperate.
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#2782 - 2012-06-23 22:47:42 UTC
Perhaps. I simply can't help be amused by a known goon-hater agreeing with us though. Big smile

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Enaris Kerle
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2783 - 2012-06-23 22:50:49 UTC
Talon SilverHawk wrote:

Mate why are you arguing whether it was legal or not the original op new it wasn't and reported it to CCP as a possible exploit (unfortunately after he had rinsed it) so where is the argument ?

What I'm arguing is that taking any proceeds of this off the players is completely the opposite of every known precedence. Nobody got their Nocx removed after refining Pax. Nobody got their Guidance Systems deleted when Tyrannis hit. Nobody got negwalleted after insurance scamming. None of these were intended, and yet CCP is doing a total 180 on their previous decisions.

Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm.
Mechaet
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2784 - 2012-06-23 22:51:54 UTC
Andrea Roche wrote:
Enaris Kerle wrote:
Xen Solarus wrote:
The key question for me is would something similar to this be allowed to happen in "the real world".

The answer is a definate no. Market manipulation is definately not allowed. It so happens that the same applies in EvE.

Yeah, starting two days ago.


actually no. You just forgot the game regulations aka
"EULA exploiting game mechanics is a bannable offence"

Also you forgot CCPs golden rule aka
"If in doubt always ask to get cover before you act or be banned"

Ask Hydra and 0utbreak about how that works.
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#2785 - 2012-06-23 22:53:59 UTC
Mag's wrote:


CCP Sreegs wrote:
We haven't punished anyone to date. We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that.


Hmmm


Ya thats why goons are pissy. They lost 5 trillion and assets but they werent punished

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Andrea Roche
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2786 - 2012-06-23 22:55:17 UTC
Mechaet wrote:
Andrea Roche wrote:
Enaris Kerle wrote:
Xen Solarus wrote:
The key question for me is would something similar to this be allowed to happen in "the real world".

The answer is a definate no. Market manipulation is definately not allowed. It so happens that the same applies in EvE.

Yeah, starting two days ago.


actually no. You just forgot the game regulations aka
"EULA exploiting game mechanics is a bannable offence"

Also you forgot CCPs golden rule aka
"If in doubt always ask to get cover before you act or be banned"

Ask Hydra and 0utbreak about how that works.


are you refering match fixing? cos they never asked about match fixing and they did get punished for it, or have we forgoten?
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#2787 - 2012-06-23 22:56:13 UTC
Enaris Kerle wrote:
Talon SilverHawk wrote:

Mate why are you arguing whether it was legal or not the original op new it wasn't and reported it to CCP as a possible exploit (unfortunately after he had rinsed it) so where is the argument ?

What I'm arguing is that taking any proceeds of this off the players is completely the opposite of every known precedence. Nobody got their Nocx removed after refining Pax. Nobody got their Guidance Systems deleted when Tyrannis hit. Nobody got negwalleted after insurance scamming. None of these were intended, and yet CCP is doing a total 180 on their previous decisions.


Don't forget neither west & gray nor Kwark had their isk taken away after spending months gaming the contract system's flawed default sorting method.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Mechaet
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2788 - 2012-06-23 22:56:37 UTC
Andrea Roche wrote:
Mechaet wrote:
Andrea Roche wrote:
Enaris Kerle wrote:
Xen Solarus wrote:
The key question for me is would something similar to this be allowed to happen in "the real world".

The answer is a definate no. Market manipulation is definately not allowed. It so happens that the same applies in EvE.

Yeah, starting two days ago.


actually no. You just forgot the game regulations aka
"EULA exploiting game mechanics is a bannable offence"

Also you forgot CCPs golden rule aka
"If in doubt always ask to get cover before you act or be banned"

Ask Hydra and 0utbreak about how that works.


are you refering match fixing? cos they never asked about match fixing and they did get punished for it, or have we forgoten?

They never got punished for match fixing. They asked if they could train together on SiSi for the upcoming alliance tournament, were given the OK, and when they did what they said they got kicked out of the alliance tournament.
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#2789 - 2012-06-23 22:56:44 UTC
Enaris Kerle wrote:
Andrea Roche wrote:
actually no. You just forgot the game regulations aka
"EULA exploiting game mechanics is a bannable offence"

We're going in circles here. Why is X not allowed? Because it's an exploit. Why is it an exploit? Because it isn't allowed. Up until two days ago, market manipulation was a perfectly legitimate tactics in the game, albeit not in real life. So that comparison falls flat on its face.


so wait, everything called market manipulation is an exploit now? Yes youre right, they HAVE destroyed your game

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
#2790 - 2012-06-23 22:58:38 UTC
Enaris Kerle wrote:
Talon SilverHawk wrote:

Mate why are you arguing whether it was legal or not the original op new it wasn't and reported it to CCP as a possible exploit (unfortunately after he had rinsed it) so where is the argument ?

What I'm arguing is that taking any proceeds of this off the players is completely the opposite of every known precedence. Nobody got their Nocx removed after refining Pax. Nobody got their Guidance Systems deleted when Tyrannis hit. Nobody got negwalleted after insurance scamming. None of these were intended, and yet CCP is doing a total 180 on their previous decisions.



Yeah but at the same time the scale of this was huge, and CCP probably need/want to send a message that this sort of thing is bad . Might have been different if he hadn't of posted about it on the forums and just had a quiet word.... who knows.


Anyhow I've been out all day anything happened or still waiting for CCP to make a call ?

Tal



Andrea Roche
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2791 - 2012-06-23 23:02:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Andrea Roche
Mechaet wrote:

They never got punished for match fixing. They asked if they could train together on SiSi for the upcoming alliance tournament, were given the OK, and when they did what they said they got kicked out of the alliance tournament.


i remember it was something else. It wasnt just cos trained togther. I cant remember exactly the whole explanation given but i do "think" it had to do with match fixing and having entering two separate teams instead of one. It wasnt just one thing as you make it look like.
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#2792 - 2012-06-23 23:03:46 UTC
Talon SilverHawk wrote:
Enaris Kerle wrote:
Talon SilverHawk wrote:

Mate why are you arguing whether it was legal or not the original op new it wasn't and reported it to CCP as a possible exploit (unfortunately after he had rinsed it) so where is the argument ?

What I'm arguing is that taking any proceeds of this off the players is completely the opposite of every known precedence. Nobody got their Nocx removed after refining Pax. Nobody got their Guidance Systems deleted when Tyrannis hit. Nobody got negwalleted after insurance scamming. None of these were intended, and yet CCP is doing a total 180 on their previous decisions.



Yeah but at the same time the scale of this was huge, and CCP probably need/want to send a message that this sort of thing is bad . Might have been different if he hadn't of posted about it on the forums and just had a quiet word.... who knows.


Anyhow I've been out all day anything happened or still waiting for CCP to make a call ?

Tal





CCP won't make a call until monday at the soonest.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#2793 - 2012-06-23 23:04:07 UTC
Tomytronic wrote:
RAP ACTION HERO wrote:
one day goons are going to cure cancer

And we'll be blamed for putting the pharmaceutical companies out of business.



Seems what's happening right here Lol

brb
Isphirel
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2794 - 2012-06-23 23:10:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Isphirel
Andrea Roche wrote:
Also you forgot CCPs golden rule aka
"If in doubt always ask to get cover before you act or be banned"

Yo that has never been any sort of "rule", golden or not. I don't have to ask CCP for permission before I buy a pile of minerals and sell them for more money the next day, I don't have to ask CCP before I buy all the Maelstroms in VFK and relist them at markup right before a fleet operation, and the OP doesn't have to ask for permission before he uses documented game mechanics to play the market either.

The fact that CCP neither thought their FW changes through nor listened to the community when they were on the test server, and are now having some sudden regrets about the whole thing, doesn't make it suddenly sleazy to not play games of "mother, may I" every time you log into the game.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#2795 - 2012-06-23 23:10:29 UTC
Andrea Roche wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Ok I'm going to go watch The Footy. It's been a gas folks.


go spain!

but we all know de Germans will win in the end...


i want spain to win but i must admit the germans are very likelly to win at the end Roll. 5 stars?


Germans look vulnerable at the back and it'll be hard for them to beat Spain with only 30% possession!
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#2796 - 2012-06-23 23:14:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Antisocial Malkavian
Andrea Roche wrote:


"You" (dont exactly mean you personally) did not ask if it was ok for to exploit the game mechanic this way.
And so you did not get cover. Something in the back of your head would have said "beware". Ignore the message and get punished.
Back again to golden rule: Always ask before you act! I came close to be ban myself but the difference is i acted on the "beware" message and so i did not get banned.


kinda like when you go into .4 or try to do something hostile in high sec.
That little warning flag
lol

corestwo wrote:
Perhaps. I simply can't help be amused by a known goon-hater agreeing with us though. Big smile


As amused as you giving his writing credence? Cause thats pretty funny

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Andrea Roche
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2797 - 2012-06-23 23:15:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Andrea Roche
Isphirel wrote:
Andrea Roche wrote:
Also you forgot CCPs golden rule aka
"If in doubt always ask to get cover before you act or be banned"

Yo that has never been any sort of "rule", golden or not. I don't have to ask CCP for permission before I buy a pile of minerals and sell them for more money the next day, I don't have to ask CCP before I buy all the Maelstroms in VFK and relist them at markup right before a fleet operation, and the OP doesn't have to ask for permission before he uses documented game mechanics to play the market either.

The fact that CCP neither thought their FW changes through nor listened to the community when they were on the test server, and are now having some sudden regrets about the whole thing, doesn't make it suddenly sleazy to not play games of "mother, may I" every time you log into the game.


you know damn perfectly well that this is nothing like buying a maelstrom and reseling it. This is nothing compared to that. We are talking of 3 trillions of isk and market manipulation based on a vulnerability (exploit of mechanic). If you are gonna exploit a mechanic then you ask if its within the rules so that you are covered. Dont try to down play 3 trillions of isk and market manipulation of a game mechanic. Once again if you did not read the EULA go and do so again.
Shai 'Hulud
#2798 - 2012-06-23 23:17:14 UTC
Isphirel wrote:
Andrea Roche wrote:
Also you forgot CCPs golden rule aka
"If in doubt always ask to get cover before you act or be banned"

Yo that has never been any sort of "rule", golden or not. I don't have to ask CCP for permission before I buy a pile of minerals and sell them for more money the next day, I don't have to ask CCP before I buy all the Maelstroms in VFK and relist them at markup right before a fleet operation, and the OP doesn't have to ask for permission before he uses documented game mechanics to play the market either.

The fact that CCP neither thought their FW changes through nor listened to the community when they were on the test server, and are now having some sudden regrets about the whole thing, doesn't make it suddenly sleazy to not play games of "mother, may I" every time you log into the game.

It seems the new "golden rule" is: If an activity is profitable you should check with CCP to make sure it's not considered an exploit.

The most useful slaves are those that believe themselves to be free
Andrea Roche
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2799 - 2012-06-23 23:20:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Andrea Roche
Shai 'Hulud wrote:
Isphirel wrote:
Andrea Roche wrote:
Also you forgot CCPs golden rule aka
"If in doubt always ask to get cover before you act or be banned"

Yo that has never been any sort of "rule", golden or not. I don't have to ask CCP for permission before I buy a pile of minerals and sell them for more money the next day, I don't have to ask CCP before I buy all the Maelstroms in VFK and relist them at markup right before a fleet operation, and the OP doesn't have to ask for permission before he uses documented game mechanics to play the market either.

The fact that CCP neither thought their FW changes through nor listened to the community when they were on the test server, and are now having some sudden regrets about the whole thing, doesn't make it suddenly sleazy to not play games of "mother, may I" every time you log into the game.

It seems the new "golden rule" is: If an activity is profitable you should check with CCP to make sure it's not considered an exploit.


Its not. EULA says that if exploting game mechanic = ban
That includes also "design flaw" since at the end of all its all written in code and exploting a game mechanic is also exploiting a game flaw. All this means : goons exploited a game mechanic by exploiting a design flaw
Isphirel
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2800 - 2012-06-23 23:20:47 UTC
Andrea Roche wrote:
you know damn perfectly well that this is nothing like buying a maelstrom and reseling it. This is nothing compared to that. We are talking of 3 trillions of isk and market manipulation based on a vulnerability (exploit of mechanic). If you are gonna exploit a mechanic then you ask if its within the rules so that you are covered. Dont try to down play 3 trillions of isk and market manipulation of a game mechanic. Once again if you did not read the EULA go and do so again.


Sounds like you're seeing a number bigger than you're used too and going "wow, that must have been an exploit". There's absolutely no reason to assume that just because it's profitable it's againt the EULA. If you'd like to explain this supposed "vulnerability", be my guest, but you'll probably want to read the OP another few times to understand what was going on.