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You really want to "revitalize null", "boost low"... then ball it up

Author
Tallianna Avenkarde
Pyre of Gods
#61 - 2012-06-23 22:56:47 UTC
Agreed, flawed idea leads to good discussion once trolls are taken out of the equation

And a sudden plunge in the sullen swell. Ten fathoms deep on the road to hell.

Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#62 - 2012-06-23 23:04:25 UTC
Ituhata wrote:


I'm assuming every cloaky has some sort of targeting delay, the guy ratting just needs to pay attention, when something pops up 2k off in a ship he needs to be warping now. Again, not asking anything more than we are of hisec miners.


Stealth Bombers don't, but they're made of paper. One or two HM-volleys from a typical cheap ratter-Drake should swat him out of the sky like a gnat, and if it doesn't then your light drones should finish the job just fine. It's why you don't see those lighting the CovCyno for the BLOPs-drop, even though they can mount and use the module (IIRC? Or is that just CovOps scanning-frigs? Aside from fitting-constraints, too, especially on the CovOps.).

BLOPs battleships don't either, but they can't warp cloaked--you'll have a much greater chance to see him on d-scan as he's in warp--and the scan-resolution/lock-times--on a Widow, at least, I've not flown the other 3--are absolutely painful, more than enough time to warp if he's alone and you're paying attention. (IOW, pew those rats in a long-range ship whilst aligned.)

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.

Ituhata
Killboard Padding Services
#63 - 2012-06-23 23:10:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Ituhata
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
]All you have to do in highsec is fit a tank that trades yield for ehp, no aligning required. And with the upcoming update, soon they'll fit the tank for you. Anyways, what would happen is that players would just go back to grinding incursions and L4s like they were before the incursion-nerf and then roaming each others space looking for the gankable ships that are no longer there, since this is what happens every time highsec gets a huge buff or 0.0 becomes less useable as a resource.


Well we've been telling them if they don't want to sacrifice yield then you must do "B". Personally, I disagree, I think there'd be alot of new random traffic, mostly noobs, so wonderful ganking opportunities. We just have to be a little more crafty to catch em. Smile


Tarryn Nightstorm wrote:


Stealth Bombers don't, but they're made of paper. One or two HM-volleys from a typical cheap ratter-Drake should swat him out of the sky like a gnat, and if it doesn't then your light drones should finish the job just fine. It's why you don't see those lighting the CovCyno for the BLOPs-drop, even though they can mount and use the module (IIRC? Or is that just CovOps scanning-frigs? Aside from fitting-constraints, too, especially on the CovOps.).

BLOPs battleships don't either, but they can't warp cloaked--you'll have a much greater chance to see him on d-scan as he's in warp--and the scan-resolution/lock-times--on a Widow, at least, I've not flown the other 3--are absolutely painful, more than enough time to warp if he's alone and you're paying attention. (IOW, pew those rats in a long-range ship whilst aligned.)


I seem to remember mounting a cyno to my manticore once, or i may be making it up in my mind. Can't say for sure. I would think it only needs to survive long enough to get your people through, though if you die then they lose point so yeah...kinda pointless. Probably the biggest thing thing I would fear is a rapier or similar recon, even if they target slow if they can manage to bump you then they might have something.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#64 - 2012-06-23 23:36:09 UTC
Ituhata wrote:
Well we've been telling them if they don't want to sacrifice yield then you must do "B". Personally, I disagree, I think there'd be alot of new random traffic, mostly noobs, so wonderful ganking opportunities. We just have to be a little more crafty to catch em. Smile

Well I live in low sec and never fight on gate, but I would still be against changing gate mechanics.

Given the size of low sec, and the ease with which combat can be avoided via local/directional, there would simply be no reason to go to the "busy" systems.

Currently there are only ~three parts of low sec that are any good for hunting outside of gate camping. The reason being you need a certain level of activity in a region to devalue local. Removing gate camping would render 95% of low sec perfectly safe.

If this proposal was coupled with a local nerf, or some similar boost to off-gate piracy, then fine. But it isn't, so it's a terrible idea.

Also, this is a bad idea, but if I were to implement it anyway I'd probably keep the out-gate. Just make it so at the other end you land somewhere random in the system. That way null sec would still be defensible, but low sec wouldn't have gate camps. It would also prevent instant travel, and keep a familiar mechanic "relatively" familiar.

Ituhata wrote:
I seem to remember mounting a cyno to my manticore once, or i may be making it up in my mind. Can't say for sure. I would think it only needs to survive long enough to get your people through, though if you die then they lose point so yeah...kinda pointless. Probably the biggest thing thing I would fear is a rapier or similar recon, even if they target slow if they can manage to bump you then they might have something.

Aye, I use a rapier, de-cloak just as you warp in. By the time you come out of warp you should be able to lock.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#65 - 2012-06-24 00:09:34 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
six years in the game and still can't get past a gatecamp lol




Been in an out of nullsec with the same ship since 2009 and it never saw a gate camp.

So yeah, I can't get past a gate camp. So I go around them. Cool

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#66 - 2012-06-24 00:12:14 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
six years in the game and still can't get past a gatecamp lol




Been in an out of nullsec with the same ship since 2009 and it never saw a gate camp.

So yeah, I can't get past a gate camp. So I go around them. Cool

this seems unlikely given you made an entire thread raging about them and demanding they be taken out

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#67 - 2012-06-24 00:59:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Herzog Wolfhammer
Weaselior wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
six years in the game and still can't get past a gatecamp lol




Been in an out of nullsec with the same ship since 2009 and it never saw a gate camp.

So yeah, I can't get past a gate camp. So I go around them. Cool

this seems unlikely given you made an entire thread raging about them and demanding they be taken out



Raging? No. I am not angry. But I am not impressed by the constant null vs high PVPer vs carebear bickering that we see a lot of in the forums.

I once spent a week in an off system by one of these gank pipelines after being dropped in via wormhole, and as usual, empty. But it was a dead end system anyway, full of untouched resources. Still the maps where showing a lot of death in the one route to low and then on to Amarr high sec.

During that time, bored, I read some long threads of the typical argument in which it was posted many ways to get around gate camps. Seeing some methods I didn't see before, I got into a same-account alt to try them out. Nice cheap clone, female also to adorn someone's frozen corpse collection, and set about trying all the tricks. My goal was to "meet myself" in that dead-end system for the lolz.

I find that even the best methods work only 70 percent of the time. This is pretty good, but still only good enough for people based in low or null. Remember my point is to answer to the complaints of people living out there already, as the gripe about lack of goodfights, targets, opportunities, and just complain about highsec carebears.

But after a while it started to occur to me that you can beat most of the gate campers most of the time but someone who is actually thinking will get you every time. Eventually my little alt space sweety ended up in a bubble that was right on top of the gate, in a system that showed only a few people there but no kills in the last hour - meaning they were camping it for a while and probably committing that crime of being semi-afk that many people say miners should die in a fire (in game) for. The cost of the ammo they used exceeded the cost of the frigate and clone. I didn't meet myself but I did find a wormhole out.... into another 0.0 system that was 28 jumps away from high sec and there I met one person in local after messing around for week....

a carrier belonging to a Russian alliance that was ...... ratting.

Meanwhile, before that, and since that time, I have spent months in nullsec in excursions way past the camps and weeks go by without seeing anybody in local. Sometimes I was hunted and learned good smack in foreign languages too. Sorry to make the bots dock up. I work along and unsupported, never using stations in NPC space but taking great pleasure in the efforts of those who thought I was docked and attempted to camp me in without first checking.

Because of my activities and what I have observed, I see across the spectrum of the game and have concluded that imposed travel restrictions on which gate mechanics are based are what makes the present situation possible. Would it have been nice if I could have called up some buddies in that system with the one carrier ratting and had them come out and destroy it? Does that sound unfair? But how many renters does the alliance owning that ship have on the way out there, using gates, "killing everything that moves", so that it's possible to rat in a carrier and not even notice when I show up?

I care not for killing ships though, but I am thinking of those who do. And I am also thinking of people who like to gank others who are complacent.

While there is much complaining about the complacency of the so-called high sec carebears, what about low sec? Meanwhile, there is a lot of space out there not being touched at all. I have been to NPC space and sov held space in the backwaters and will find it's chock full of sites and resources. Why not should a bunch of "highseccers" not be able to form up a raid/combat group and sneak in?

Again I say, "ball up", because if the whole arrangement is "untouched sanctuary deep in null with a ring of gatecamping cannonfodder keeping everybody else in", then I really want to know who can defend that?

What, the people in high sec have not "earned" the right to be out there? What it "earning" the right? When I see fat people at the gym I have respect for them because hey, that are at least at the gym.

So we see a barrier erected by the players whereby one must "earn" the right to be out there by what? Signing on with the people already out there. And that's considered lucky. How many end up as renters?

Again I would ask, how do you defend things the way they are?

But I am still answering to the complaints. If things are to stay the way they are, then people need to stop the complaining. If you are going to sit in a constellation and kill everything that moves, stop complaining when there are few things around there moving. And if you want to camp all day watching a gate, then stop looking down on people who want to mine rocks all day. As far as I am concerned, both players are playing the same kind of game - one that would have the rest of us slamming our heads in the nearest door.

Would this be a module? Skills or implants a factor? Who knows, but even without this aspect, I see a lot of fear.

And I am once more not impressed because I figured that the people camping gates all day would see my idea as a release from this drudgery of gate camping. What's wrong with having to patrol your deep null systems to make sure someone is not sneaking about? Instead I see someone describe a scenario of one ship causing a lot of trouble simply because it could get out there.

In many ways, my proposal would possibly make nullsec as dangerous as highsec. But is this not what people want? People gank hulk all over high sec to remind people that this is a PVP game.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#68 - 2012-06-24 02:37:30 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
The cost of the ammo they used exceeded the cost of the frigate and clone.

So using a noob alt and a T1 frigate you managed to get around 70% of gate camps?

Buff gate camps.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]

Lipbite
Express Hauler
#69 - 2012-06-24 03:34:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Lipbite
Random entry point instead of gate landing is actually a very good idea.

Except for one "but": any substantial improvements in PvP and null-sec mechanics have potential to shift economy and status quo for null alliances - and it may result in massive forum shitstorm, player exodus, CCP staff layoffs, etc. etc. All while CCP is on verge of releasing Dust. I wouldn't expect any substantial changes in EVE (except maybe mining frigate release) for at least couple years until it will be clear if Dust succeed or not.
strikefour
Purple Passion Procurements
#70 - 2012-06-24 03:56:50 UTC
Ryoken McKeon wrote:
Confirming that the OP is an idiot.


Confirming that you are a destructive troll that does not deserve to catch and eats its breakfast. Starve.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#71 - 2012-06-24 03:58:57 UTC
strikefour wrote:
Ryoken McKeon wrote:
Confirming that the OP is an idiot.


Confirming that you are a destructive troll that does not deserve to catch and eats its breakfast. Starve.


Capsuleers can't starve, so that means you're talking about... uh oh... everybody, run, the mods are coming.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

strikefour
Purple Passion Procurements
#72 - 2012-06-24 04:02:48 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
Would we just go to having nothing but station camps?


Only for the morons who can not hunt for their food and instead want their food to be delivered directly to them.

Vincent Athena wrote:
Also, more than "get rid of gates" is needed. From where can a star jump be initiated from? Do you have to get far away from a station or planet first? Where do you end up after the jump?

Are only certain stars accessible from any given star? For example we could have that you can only jump over the same routes we can now with star gates, you just do not use gates. Or would we want to allow new routes, or free movement over all of the the star system?


Well, you would have distance limitations like current jump drives. *shrug* It all falls into place from there. Perhaps the mechanics could be changed a bit to make station camping a boring pasttime again but I doubt anything will change. These changes require imagination and a bit of risk on the part of CCP, both qualities with which they seem to be lacking (which is why my accounts are already cancelled after 6+ years of play(this one has not expired yet)).
strikefour
Purple Passion Procurements
#73 - 2012-06-24 04:05:58 UTC  |  Edited by: strikefour
RubyPorto wrote:
strikefour wrote:
Ryoken McKeon wrote:
Confirming that the OP is an idiot.


Confirming that you are a destructive troll that does not deserve to catch and eats its breakfast. Starve.


Capsuleers can't starve, so that means you're talking about... uh oh... everybody, run, the mods are coming.



Actually, the goons ARE starving. That is why (as a whole) they are raiding hisec. That is also why this discussion even came up. Eve *is* dying and the goons raiding hisec are merely a symptom (not the cause!) of that.

Edit: Eve does not have to die and it CAN be turned around. I am not the only older player leaving Eve. The only reason I even read the forums today is because I thought Eve was down because I wanted to update my training queue even though this account will be expiring soon (in case Eve comes alive again). Obviously, Eve was not down, it was a networking issue.
strikefour
Purple Passion Procurements
#74 - 2012-06-24 04:16:02 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
six years in the game and still can't get past a gatecamp lol


Again with the troll remarks. You can be such a smart and sensible person and then you go on with crap like this. Only a more powerful fleet can get through a gate camp. Insta-lock, bubbles, massive amounts of drones, etc. ensure that if there is a gate camp, then the only way to get through it is to fight. With so few avenues in to null, avoiding a gatecamp (lrn2scout, d'oh!) is not a viable option.

Nullsec wants PvP and CCP gave it to them. In spades. Deal with it and stop pretending like PvP can be avoided.
strikefour
Purple Passion Procurements
#75 - 2012-06-24 04:26:46 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Ituhata wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

Interdictors are a nono since they use the fearsome bubble and the rest are useless if you can't get the enemy to appear at a gate and force him to fight.


So you cant set a bait ship, you cant probe someone down, you cant fleet warp in and get the point and throw a bubble up and kill something?

Bait fleets don't force anyone to engage, they merely offer the aggressor the choice of doing so.

So let's say I'm in a 700+ DPS cloaky blaster Proteus and have effortlessly walked into my enemy's space. To catch me, the whole alliance has to shut down everything and form "bait fleets" in their own space until I decide to attack at anywhere at any time my leisure. They have a formed fleet, even a cloaked dictor sitting in the haven next to the bait. They wait for hours, because I was AFK at the time and a dozen people have wasted their evening. And I didn't risk a single thing to do any of this. This is Herzog's vision of "revitalizing null and lowsec" for newbies.

Being able to force fights, whether it's by killing a vital POS structure to force defenders to defend, or catching an aggressor on a gate, is an absolutely vital aspect for players who actually intend to live in low/0.0 space. Compromising that on what is mostly an appeal to emotions is a bad idea.


And here you have an intelligent and sensible argument again. I do not know whether to like you or dislike you.

These game mechanics need to be looked at. Why is a 700 DPS cloaky ship such a threat to an alliance that they need to shut everything down to go looking for you?

Can you pop a cyno and invite in a fleet of 50+ Titans? Perhaps the cyno-jamming mechanics need to be looked at.

Can you hunt down and kill a small mining op? Sure, but they should have a couple 500+ DPS ships protecting the op.

Again, why does everything need to stop just to get a single ship out of their space?
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#76 - 2012-06-24 06:00:52 UTC
No amount of game changes will improve null sec for you.

So ... go on making even bigger alliances and do nothing fun with them, that might help. Twisted

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~

Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#77 - 2012-06-24 06:04:29 UTC
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
Pix Severus wrote:
I'm a high-sec miner/mission runner, If the changes the OP proposed were to take place, and thus remove gate camps, I would go into low/null a lot more often.

I don't see any reason to complain over this idea.
High-sec people get to see more of the universe without getting insta-ganked as soon as they enter low-sec.
Low/Null-sec people get more targets.

Where's the problem?


The problem is that it will require effort from the low/null peeps to get their kills then.



If think gate camping is where kills come from in Null.....
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#78 - 2012-06-24 06:14:06 UTC
strikefour wrote:


And here you have an intelligent and sensible argument again. I do not know whether to like you or dislike you.

These game mechanics need to be looked at. Why is a 700 DPS cloaky ship such a threat to an alliance that they need to shut everything down to go looking for you?


No, while this tactic may scare some, basically all it does is force people to put shiny stuff away, a cloaker in system isn't that scary, see the same name in local and never on scan, you basically ignore them and go about whatever you are doing.

strikefour wrote:

Can you pop a cyno and invite in a fleet of 50+ Titans? Perhaps the cyno-jamming mechanics need to be looked at.


Absolutely, still unless there is a serious credible threat (and AFK cloakers aren't it) most systems will be unjammed, the warp drive is the fasted way to move stuff across null, so if you jam all of your systems its a serious pain in the ass to get anything done because you have to run someone ahead of where you are trying to go and cycle the jammers.

Fortunately, its no overt cynos that you have to worry about, a black ops can't bridge a titan, so you see the cyno go up and get safe. Covert cynos are a real pain, because all you have is a local spike, and you better be moving.....because they are.


strikefour wrote:

Can you hunt down and kill a small mining op? Sure, but they should have a couple 500+ DPS ships protecting the op.


A properly done covet drop would take a HELL of a lot more than a couple drakes to defend. Mining barges are fragile AND slow, 5 bombers can wipe out a fair number of hulks per run

strikefour wrote:

Again, why does everything need to stop just to get a single ship out of their space?


It doesn't.


Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#79 - 2012-06-24 06:39:11 UTC
strikefour wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Ituhata wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

Interdictors are a nono since they use the fearsome bubble and the rest are useless if you can't get the enemy to appear at a gate and force him to fight.


So you cant set a bait ship, you cant probe someone down, you cant fleet warp in and get the point and throw a bubble up and kill something?

Bait fleets don't force anyone to engage, they merely offer the aggressor the choice of doing so.

So let's say I'm in a 700+ DPS cloaky blaster Proteus and have effortlessly walked into my enemy's space. To catch me, the whole alliance has to shut down everything and form "bait fleets" in their own space until I decide to attack at anywhere at any time my leisure. They have a formed fleet, even a cloaked dictor sitting in the haven next to the bait. They wait for hours, because I was AFK at the time and a dozen people have wasted their evening. And I didn't risk a single thing to do any of this. This is Herzog's vision of "revitalizing null and lowsec" for newbies.

Being able to force fights, whether it's by killing a vital POS structure to force defenders to defend, or catching an aggressor on a gate, is an absolutely vital aspect for players who actually intend to live in low/0.0 space. Compromising that on what is mostly an appeal to emotions is a bad idea.


And here you have an intelligent and sensible argument again. I do not know whether to like you or dislike you.

These game mechanics need to be looked at. Why is a 700 DPS cloaky ship such a threat to an alliance that they need to shut everything down to go looking for you?

Can you pop a cyno and invite in a fleet of 50+ Titans? Perhaps the cyno-jamming mechanics need to be looked at.

Can you hunt down and kill a small mining op? Sure, but they should have a couple 500+ DPS ships protecting the op.

Again, why does everything need to stop just to get a single ship out of their space?



I suppose the answer is that it does not.

All that would need to be done is for people in nullsec to follow the same list of precautions that are given to Hulk pilots in highsec and any lowsec mission runner.


You know, the one where you have to always stay aligned, watch local, use the D-scanner, etc.

It's an easy list to follow, since everybody in lowsec and nullsec says it is and they promote it so much, and with such vigor whenever anybody gets jumped or ganked and complains about it in the forums.

Unfortunately, as someone who cloaks but is rarely AFK - doing it to survive and stay off the killboards - I see a lot of T2 ships dock up. Per the script I guess. There's deep dark secrets afoot. Perhaps another benefit of system to system warp capability is what damage it will do to botting.





Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#80 - 2012-06-24 06:57:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:


Unfortunately, as someone who cloaks but is rarely AFK - doing it to survive and stay off the killboards - I see a lot of T2 ships dock up. Per the script I guess. There's deep dark secrets afoot. Perhaps another benefit of system to system warp capability is what damage it will do to botting.
The Forge had more bots then all of nullsec combined according to CCP @ Fanfest 2012, hth