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Making nullsec vibrant again

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Mrr Woodcock
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#881 - 2012-06-23 06:33:24 UTC
I was thinking about it a bit. Maybe not Concord, but instead Factional Navy Forces. They still hit like a ton of bricks, but can be tanked, and can be destroyed if you try hard enough. But they do respond to crime if they happen to be in the area.

My purpose is to simply make things interesting from a PVP prospective, and attract Industrialists & mission runners looking to make bank. But risky bank.
Shameless Avenger
Can Preachers of Kador
#882 - 2012-06-23 06:47:55 UTC
If somebody doesn't want to play null sec, they won't go to null sec regardless of what you do. Casual players with RL priorities (jobs, kids, wife, etc) can't commit to play the game daily. Quite often, they come back after a few days (weeks?) just to find that the whole region is now red and the only possible thing to do is jump clone out, leaving all assets behind. So they just don't go there.


You can't really tell your daughter that the movie trip has to be cancelled because there's a CTA.

"This is the Ninja. He will scan you down; he will salvage your wrecks and there shall be no aggro"
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#883 - 2012-06-23 07:28:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Mara Rinn wrote:
Enkill Eridos wrote:
Are all of you that think this morons? Or do you just don't pay attention? ….

THE TRUTH OF EVE IS NOT GREATER RISK GREATER REWARD. THAT STATEMENT IS FALSE. CREATED BY LOW SEC DWELLERS SO THEY CAN GANK YOU. THE TRUTH IS YOU GET THE SAME REWARD RUNNING MISSIONS IN NPC NULL AND LOW SEC AS YOU DO IN EMPIRE.


Calling people idiots and yelling at them is rarely an encouragement for them to listen to your advice.

As for tuning lowsec missions, there should be fewer EHP to hew through, more requirement for gates, travel and perhaps cargo collection. The less time spent in space the better.



True and shows why EvE PvP is sh!t.

All my other PvP games let you completely develop your character (money and levels wise) by PvPing.
Most of my other PvP games let you completely do the optional PvE in PvP gear. Even the instances, they can be "invaded" but hey you are in a PvP setup in there so you can kill them. The NPCs are programmed to let you defend. If you lose, the others can finish the instance and get the loot.
All my other PvP games strongly encourage you to ALWAYS be out to PvP, not to "the less time spent in space the better".

I bet that encouraging everybody being always out to pew pew makes a game much more vibrant than a game where if you stick out for 1 minute longer than strictly necessary you are stupid.

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Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#884 - 2012-06-23 07:31:57 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

True and shows why EvE PvP is sh!t.

All my other PvP games let you completely develop your character (money and levels wise) by PvPing.
All my other PvP games strongly encourage you to ALWAYS be out to PvP, not to "the less time spent in space the better".

I bet that encouraging everybody being always out to pew pew makes a game much more vibrant than a game where if you stick out for 1 minute longer than strictly necessary you are stupid.

"EVE PVP is bad because it has meaningful consequences and actual loss" - Vaerah Vahrohka
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#885 - 2012-06-23 08:14:18 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
All my other PvP games let you completely develop your character (money and levels wise) by PvPing.
All my other PvP games strongly encourage you to ALWAYS be out to PvP, not to "the less time spent in space the better".

I bet that encouraging everybody being always out to pew pew makes a game much more vibrant than a game where if you stick out for 1 minute longer than strictly necessary you are stupid.

"EVE PVP is bad because it has meaningful consequences and actual loss" - Vaerah Vahrohka

Yeah. Need more Trammel or something?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Mrr Woodcock
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#886 - 2012-06-23 21:15:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Mrr Woodcock
Shameless Avenger wrote:
If somebody doesn't want to play null sec, they won't go to null sec regardless of what you do. Casual players with RL priorities (jobs, kids, wife, etc) can't commit to play the game daily. Quite often, they come back after a few days (weeks?) just to find that the whole region is now red and the only possible thing to do is jump clone out, leaving all assets behind. So they just don't go there.


You can't really tell your daughter that the movie trip has to be cancelled because there's a CTA.


OK, high sec miner, has to mine 25 hours to make the same ISK as a low sec miner could make in 1 hour. This wouldn't be even the slightest temptation to go there.

PS. always take the movies with your daughter, over EVE. This is a no brainer.

But many miners and mission runners really don't get it, I admit it. They have no clue how to set something like an ongoing low sec mining or missioning op up. It's kinda sad really. Maybe a few CCP tutorials on how it's done might be in order.
Kiteo Hatto
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#887 - 2012-06-23 21:24:29 UTC
Mrr Woodcock wrote:
Shameless Avenger wrote:
If somebody doesn't want to play null sec, they won't go to null sec regardless of what you do. Casual players with RL priorities (jobs, kids, wife, etc) can't commit to play the game daily. Quite often, they come back after a few days (weeks?) just to find that the whole region is now red and the only possible thing to do is jump clone out, leaving all assets behind. So they just don't go there.


You can't really tell your daughter that the movie trip has to be cancelled because there's a CTA.


OK, high sec miner, has to mine 25 hours to make the same ISK as a low sec miner could make in 1 hour. This wouldn't be even the slightest temptation to go there.

PS. always take the movies with your daughter, over EVE. This is a no brainer.

But many miners and mission runners really don't get it, I admit it. They have no clue how to set something like an ongoing low sec mining or missioning op up. It's kinda sad really. Maybe a few CCP tutorials on how it's done might be in order.


The hisec miner would then do something else in hisec to make reasonable profit, if you nerf those then they won't have anything to do that suits their playstyle, so they will quit the game.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#888 - 2012-06-23 21:32:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Kiteo Hatto wrote:

The hisec miner would then do something else in hisec to make reasonable profit, if you nerf those then they won't have anything to do that suits their playstyle, so they will quit the game.

Their playstyle is to make moderate profit with the minimum possible risk. Because EVE is a competitive game they will pursue the absolute best possible method of doing so that's available, as not doing so is putting yourself at a deliberate disadvantage. By increasing the minimum risk in highsec (removing decshields and NPC corps) you put no specific individual at a disadvantage and encourage more dynamic and competitive gameplay for highsec players while simultaneously fixing some of the biggest barriers for them to branch out into other secstatus areas.
Mrr Woodcock
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#889 - 2012-06-23 21:43:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Mrr Woodcock
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
Mrr Woodcock wrote:
Shameless Avenger wrote:
If somebody doesn't want to play null sec, they won't go to null sec regardless of what you do. Casual players with RL priorities (jobs, kids, wife, etc) can't commit to play the game daily. Quite often, they come back after a few days (weeks?) just to find that the whole region is now red and the only possible thing to do is jump clone out, leaving all assets behind. So they just don't go there.


You can't really tell your daughter that the movie trip has to be cancelled because there's a CTA.


OK, high sec miner, has to mine 25 hours to make the same ISK as a low sec miner could make in 1 hour. This wouldn't be even the slightest temptation to go there.

PS. always take the movies with your daughter, over EVE. This is a no brainer.

But many miners and mission runners really don't get it, I admit it. They have no clue how to set something like an ongoing low sec mining or missioning op up. It's kinda sad really. Maybe a few CCP tutorials on how it's done might be in order.


The hisec miner would then do something else in hisec to make reasonable profit, if you nerf those then they won't have anything to do that suits their playstyle, so they will quit the game.


Well CCP's style is to move slowly most of the time, to avoid major changes in favor of gradually moving things in the needed direction.

First I'm not even suggesting they nerf anything in high sec. (attempting to force people to do things again, not into that).
I think, let inflation take it's course over time. People that stay in high sec will gradually be left behind if they don't move onward to keep up.

If they choose to stay in High Sec, they will inevitably live just above the EVE poverty level. Simple as that.

On the other hand, Low sec needs to be made survivable, in there eyes, even though you and I my think it is already. Hence my roaming Concord or Navy presence there. These NPC low sec law enforcers, would linger anywhere a crime is committed, if they happen to be in system. This could be an asteroid belt, (remember these guys are not everywhere all the time). While there in the belt, it's safe to mine there, they respond just like concord, with the exceptions, that it is possible to tank them, and even destroy them. The force should be large and intimidating to criminals though. On the other hand they will leave with no warning, so miners will have to be on there toes.

There should also be a few officer rats added to Low sec. IMO. Remember where the cheese is. Naturally there should be significantly more in Null.

These are just my thoughts on what might work. But to make the big bucks, the miners and mission runners have to accept on there own, that operating in this area is necessary.
Mrr Woodcock
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#890 - 2012-06-23 21:45:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Mrr Woodcock
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Kiteo Hatto wrote:

The hisec miner would then do something else in hisec to make reasonable profit, if you nerf those then they won't have anything to do that suits their playstyle, so they will quit the game.

Their playstyle is to make moderate profit with the minimum possible risk. Because EVE is a competitive game they will pursue the absolute best possible method of doing so that's available, as not doing so is putting yourself at a deliberate disadvantage. By increasing the minimum risk in highsec (removing decshields and NPC corps) you put no specific individual at a disadvantage and encourage more dynamic and competitive gameplay for highsec players while simultaneously fixing some of the biggest barriers for them to branch out into other secstatus areas.


Seriously, you think CCP would actually do that? I just think you're barking up the wrong tree. Cool
Red Teufel
Calamitous-Intent
#891 - 2012-06-23 21:50:25 UTC
problem why highsec peeps wont move to null is their lack of information about it. mostly a highsec carebear will only hear null is scary don't go there, you'll get blobbed by 100 dudes. what they don't know is how it's far safer, more rewarding to do their carebearing in null, mining in hidden belts that will constantly respawn soon as you finish them, same goes for the ratting anoms. ccp have made changes in the past to make null profitable for all sp levels.

The pvp out there is excellent but it all depends on where you go ;)
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#892 - 2012-06-23 21:51:13 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

True and shows why EvE PvP is sh!t.

All my other PvP games let you completely develop your character (money and levels wise) by PvPing.
All my other PvP games strongly encourage you to ALWAYS be out to PvP, not to "the less time spent in space the better".

I bet that encouraging everybody being always out to pew pew makes a game much more vibrant than a game where if you stick out for 1 minute longer than strictly necessary you are stupid.

"EVE PVP is bad because it has meaningful consequences and actual loss" - Vaerah Vahrohka


Balls. DArkfall Online and others have HARSHER consequences than EvE while being more fun and ready PvP.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#893 - 2012-06-23 21:52:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
All my other PvP games let you completely develop your character (money and levels wise) by PvPing.
All my other PvP games strongly encourage you to ALWAYS be out to PvP, not to "the less time spent in space the better".

I bet that encouraging everybody being always out to pew pew makes a game much more vibrant than a game where if you stick out for 1 minute longer than strictly necessary you are stupid.

"EVE PVP is bad because it has meaningful consequences and actual loss" - Vaerah Vahrohka

Yeah. Need more Trammel or something?


You need more assets removed. And more brain inserted.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Mrr Woodcock
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#894 - 2012-06-23 21:54:38 UTC
Red Teufel wrote:
problem why highsec peeps wont move to null is their lack of information about it. mostly a highsec carebear will only hear null is scary don't go there, you'll get blobbed by 100 dudes. what they don't know is how it's far safer, more rewarding to do their carebearing in null, mining in hidden belts that will constantly respawn soon as you finish them, same goes for the ratting anoms. ccp have made changes in the past to make null profitable for all sp levels.

The pvp out there is excellent but it all depends on where you go ;)


I couldn't agree more. It is safer, there just completely ignorant on how to operate there. But big rewards make a very compelling argument to go there.
Mrr Woodcock
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#895 - 2012-06-23 22:05:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Mrr Woodcock
In regards to Null. Clearly the most important change in my mind. "THE MOON HAS BEEN DEPLETED OF RESOURCES".
Once your POS posts this message, the Tech moon re spawns at a completely random point in null. Then you got to go find it. When I say random, the only place off limits is LOw and high sec. So it could spawn in unknown space. The average harvest time for any moon should be 30 day, some special ones could go 60 days, none longer.
Cloned S0ul
POCKOCMOC Inc.
#896 - 2012-06-23 22:13:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Cloned S0ul
Guys you realy think CCP listen to you ? next goal for CCP is to balance few ships before winter expansion , in next year they plan to start balance t1 cruisers, these few aspect cost them like one year long of hard work becuse eve code and mechanic is wired ! they work hard on existed bugs, DUST and WOD at one time.

And you all scream about your needs, made this, add this, i want this, they want this, add this becuse i want etc, no chcance for any of your idea because CCP are on stres with small things like fixing inferno, ui, add small things like new mining frigatges etc, to add all your ideas into game, they need probably like 6 next years + 12 expansions and like xxxx number of patches because as we know evey addeon is buged and every change need to be fixed after relase...

My last therad about my wishes and ideas was named (CCP please improve game for old players) because some of them are bored while here enough stuf for new players etc. But i realise they cant ! because is easy to share with own ideas, but hard to CCP to add even few ides to game, and you want change whole mechanic in null space, come on go back to earth...

Ps. I think whole therad where people share with own ideas about small things in game is also another waste of time, CCP cant hanle so meny things simultaneously...
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#897 - 2012-06-23 22:20:08 UTC
Enkill Eridos wrote:
No he did not, he just said l4 missions removed from hi- stick then repeated the same thing as a carrot. Without any rebalancing of the mission system the change Kimmi proposed is a carrot that looks like a dried up turd. I.e. the only carrot is for the pirates.


This is the post by Adelphie - the OP

Adelphie wrote:
In Eve I am almost exclusively a small gang/solo pvper, and have been for the past few years. I've noticed the traffic in null slowly reducing to a point where it is actually safer to be around null than highsec in many cases, which in my mind is not the way things should be. From a purely selfish point of view I would like to see this trend reverse and see null becoming as vibrant as it has been in days gone by so I've got stuff to shoot.

I explored why this has been happening a while ago, and it generated some really interesting ideas, so I'd like to revisit it. If nothing else it gives the players and CCP something to think about.

There are a few reasons that I can see for a reduction of traffic, mainly caused by a lack of migration of players into null:

- High barriers to entry for newer players/corps/alliances to move to null
- Not enough of a carrot to entice players away from highsec
- A lack of differentiated content in null vs. other areas of space.
- Current alliances entrenched in their space.
- Not enough reason for industrialists to be in null

So my question to the masses is this: What features could be introduced to reverse the trend, and increase the number of people wanting to come to null?

Before we get into the inevitable flame session that is General Discussion, I wanted to stress that I don't want this to be a "y u no pvp carebears" thread. There's enough of those already. Equally, for people who want to stay in highsec - that's fine too... nobody's forcing you to leave!


This is a quote by Masternerdguy - the carrot/stick man

Masternerdguy wrote:
Then use both the stick and the carrot and move all level 4s no lo sec.


And finally here is Kimmi (yea that's me) agreeing with you on Page 2 and yet still trying to maintain some kind of constructive discussion as this thread progressed. It is also a response directed towards Masternerdguy - the carrot/stick man.

Kimmi Chan wrote:
I don't think you understand carebears anymore than carebears understand you. All Level 5s moved to low sec. Some people ran them others just continued to do Level 4s in High Sec.

If you move Level 4s to Low Sec some people will take a chance on them but many will just do Level 3s in High Sec instead and 2 years from now you will want Level 3s moved to Low Sec.

You solution does not get at the root of the problem. It is a knee jerk reaction designed to increase the number of targets in Low Sec for you to shoot at. But this kind of change will not bring about the desired result. Just as the migration of all Level 5s did not bring about the desired result.

I find it comical that you want to change the way people play so that they feel motivated to join you in Low and Null Sec and yet at every turn you seem to insult, disparage, and bully every person who does not agree with you. If you are any measure of the type of person that people will have to deal with in Low and Null Sec, it becomes clear why people stay in High Sec.

Here is another example of what people can look forward to in Null Sec.

I do not despise you for what you do. I do not lobby on the forums for changes in mechanics to make my game more safe or fun. I do not agree with your opinion though I do recognize your right to have one.

The staleness in Null Sec that the OP is trying to address is a direct result of the actions of the residents of that area. Many Null Sec residents believe that if they change High Sec it will invigorate Null Sec. Please explain to me how that works. Personally, I believe that if they wanted to make it less stale they have the means to do so already.


Credit where credit is due. I hope this helps.



"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

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Mrr Woodcock
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#898 - 2012-06-23 22:20:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Mrr Woodcock
I disagree, I think CCP welcomes positive suggestions. It goes with out saying they can't implement everything. I get that. But every one in a while something gets traction.

Kimmi Chan many feel you need to force people to do things. My experience is this never works in real life situations, not even in jail. lol
Cloned S0ul
POCKOCMOC Inc.
#899 - 2012-06-23 22:30:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Cloned S0ul
Mrr Woodcock wrote:
I disagree, I think CCP welcomes positive suggestions.l


Yes they welcomes all positive suggestions but in fact they cant handle all these wishes about totaly changes mechanic in null space changing mission, redesign existed mechanic etc, its impossible.
Pink Marshmellow
Caucasian Culture Club
#900 - 2012-06-23 22:30:38 UTC
I don't know what CCP can even do to make nullsec "vibrant" at least in a long term way.

Nullsec is as it is because of Monolithic alliances that form very large coalitions. In order to survive in nullsec you pretty much sign a contract with the devil. You will have to become a puppet or a pet of these large coalitions and serve their agendas, even if you yourself do not like it.

At that point it becomes unappealing, people spend money to play this game, being part of a sov entity can be fun at first, but then it eventually feels and becomes a second job which you pay for. It becomes stale and tasteless and as a result retention of players especially veteran players is low.

I flew for a good while in nullsec and I got tired of it and left. I have no intention of returning to nullsec.

What can CCP do about it? You can't punish players for organizing big coalitions since this is a MMO game. Punishing players for massive coaltions will only make it worst.

In the end its all up to the people in nullsec to make nullsec as it is. No game mechanics can really change how things are run. (Sov Grinding is boring- perhaps CCP can fix that)