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How is this an exploit when insurance fruad was not?
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Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2012-06-23 19:56:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
Fix Lag wrote:
Also, CCP does not set market prices.

That should be "EyjoG usually doesn't approve of fixed market prices."

Only after he was hired did CCP seriously start to remove the price floors/ceilings which had existed for years (remember POS modules? shuttles?).

By controlling the supply of ISK and the supply and quality of goods CCP does of course control market prices.
The recent decision to seed some of the new items only as BPCs should show you that CCP appreciates tight control over the supply-side in some cases.

Fix Lag wrote:
Oh, so because people bragged about being richer than you, it's an exploit. I think it's pretty obvious why so many people are upset that this was done--they wanted in on it, but didn't make any money. Jealousy does not make something against the rules.

Just because a rule exists does not mean it has to be enforced at all times - it just means CCP has the option to enforce it (e.g. the ban on account sharing is a great example for a rule that is only enforced selectively).

The general reaction of the playerbase (which is of course influenced by bragging and how many players are part of the culprits) can influence whether a rule does actually get enforced or not.

A service provider does not operate in a vaccum.

.
Fix Lag
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2012-06-23 19:58:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Fix Lag
Vera Algaert wrote:
Just because a rule exists does not mean it has to be enforced at all times - it just means CCP has the option to enforce it (e.g. the ban on account sharing is a great example for a rule that is only enforced selectively).


That one is not enforced because it can almost never be proven. What a horrible example.

CCP mostly sucks at their job, but Veritas is a pretty cool dude.
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2012-06-23 19:59:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
Fix Lag wrote:
Vera Algaert wrote:
Just because a rule exists does not mean it has to be enforced at all times - it just means CCP has the option to enforce it (e.g. the ban on account sharing is a great example for a rule that is only enforced selectively).


That one is not enforced because it can almost never be proven. What a horrible example.

the quality of the example does not affect the substance of my argument, the example is merely an illustration of the argument.

edit: also why are you so angry? I agree with you.

.
Fix Lag
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2012-06-23 20:00:53 UTC
Vera Algaert wrote:
The general reaction of the playerbase (which is of course influenced by bragging and how many players are part of the culprits) can influence whether a rule does actually get enforced or not.


90% of the players in this game hate Goonswarm so what you're saying is selectively enforcing non-existent rules against them is okay because no one likes them. Well, when you put it that way...

CCP mostly sucks at their job, but Veritas is a pretty cool dude.
Innywuhne
Doomheim
#45 - 2012-06-23 20:03:34 UTC
for this project you talk about on the first page, did you have your alts shoot you and salvage? or did you do something to trigger a response from other players to speed things up? did random people blow you up? or always someone under your control? i'm just trying to wrap my head around what must have been required to blow up hundreds of ships. if you were able to do it totally solo with alts, well thats amazing. with help from friends its slightly less impressive, but still a pretty massive undertaking.
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2012-06-23 20:09:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
Innywuhne wrote:
for this project you talk about on the first page, did you have your alts shoot you and salvage? or did you do something to trigger a response from other players to speed things up? did random people blow you up? or always someone under your control? i'm just trying to wrap my head around what must have been required to blow up hundreds of ships. if you were able to do it totally solo with alts, well thats amazing. with help from friends its slightly less impressive, but still a pretty massive undertaking.

usually: get GCC, then undock the battleships one after another and have an alt ready on undock to salvage.

some people used FW alts to kill the battleships for additional profit (LP payouts).

.
Lexmana
#47 - 2012-06-23 20:16:43 UTC
Fix Lag wrote:
Vera Algaert wrote:
The general reaction of the playerbase (which is of course influenced by bragging and how many players are part of the culprits) can influence whether a rule does actually get enforced or not.


90% of the players in this game hate Goonswarm so what you're saying is selectively enforcing non-existent rules against them is okay because no one likes them. Well, when you put it that way...

You have to separate the act from consequences of the act. The act was an exploit. There is no question about that. But wether they should have their assets confiscated or something is another question entirely.

I think some kind of reward is appropriate since they actually helped CCP with the design of the game . This possible exploit was called by several players way before release and CCP could have listened then. But since they didn't goons had to show them first hand.

Should they be able to keep all their LP and items/ISK gained from the exploit? If it breaks the game absolutely not. If it only means a minor disruption (like the insurance fraud) - hell yes! And then there is everything in between. It looks like we are somewhere in-between.

And we should not blame this one on the goons. This situation was created by CCP only.
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#48 - 2012-06-23 20:28:02 UTC
What I dont undestand is how doing anything that involves killing youself, your alts, of your allies for profit isn't considered a broken game mechanic and isn't an exploit. Any sort of player vs player destruction should always result in a net loss.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
MagicAcid
Nullbear Tear Extractors
Hostile Intervention
#49 - 2012-06-23 20:31:37 UTC
Innywuhne wrote:
for this project you talk about on the first page, did you have your alts shoot you and salvage? or did you do something to trigger a response from other players to speed things up? did random people blow you up? or always someone under your control? i'm just trying to wrap my head around what must have been required to blow up hundreds of ships. if you were able to do it totally solo with alts, well thats amazing. with help from friends its slightly less impressive, but still a pretty massive undertaking.


I hauled minerals for, manufactured, insured, and blew up hundreds of ships a day.

I am also proud to say I found ways to do this efficiently without any macros or even mouseclick broadcasting.

Anyways I had some help from people for supplying minerals, but sometimes I went days hauling it all myself with only 2 freighters and an orca.

If I had 12 alts at the time instead of just 3 I could have destroyed a ship every few seconds. Send me an evemail ingame and I can arrange to do it again on the test server and take a video :)

Also I popped 1 ship without insureing it :( and 1-2 with basic insurance.
MagicAcid
Nullbear Tear Extractors
Hostile Intervention
#50 - 2012-06-23 20:33:14 UTC  |  Edited by: MagicAcid
Sentamon wrote:
What I dont undestand is how doing anything that involves killing youself, your alts, of your allies for profit isn't considered a broken game mechanic and isn't an exploit. Any sort of player vs player destruction should always result in a net loss.


I actually woudl fit ships with smartbombs and go provoke 50-500 man gangs to send their drones at me :)

I even killed a couple t2 frigs this way, one even was salvage fit :)

Even with a rack of smartbombs and capboosters and stabs I think I broke even or close to it.
Fix Lag
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2012-06-23 20:37:48 UTC
Sentamon wrote:
What I dont undestand is how doing anything that involves killing youself, your alts, of your allies for profit isn't considered a broken game mechanic and isn't an exploit. Any sort of player vs player destruction should always result in a net loss.


Well, it was a dumb game mechanic. That's why it was used. Exploits and CCP being bad at math aren't the same thing.

CCP mostly sucks at their job, but Veritas is a pretty cool dude.
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#52 - 2012-06-23 20:39:50 UTC
Just because game mechanics allow something does not mean it's not an exploit. Often it means they don't know about it or they haven't fixed it yet. The defense "the game allows me to do it so it should be allowed" is trying to get away on a technicality. You don't have to be warned or punished to exploit something unintended. It doesn't have to be fixed for you to be exploiting something that is unintended.

I love the list of things they did and asking which one is the exploit. I'm pretty sure if I had followed all those steps I would have lost ISK and wondered which part you left out. The part that was left out is where they analyzed and manipulated the market to make tons of ISK from NPCs. Your list is not complete because I can follow it to the letter and not make any ISK. You wanted a better analogy, ok...Buying and selling stocks is legal. Using information that not everyone has access to in order to make the buying and selling of stocks more profitable is not legal.

Blowing up ships to make a profit from the insurance was an exploit. Do you really think that was what was intended? It was a flaw in the design of it and people exploited that flaw.

This shouldn't be such a point of contention. How you define it is just silly, we all understand the problem. They used a flaw in the game design to make ISK in a way that was not intended.

Manipulating the market to make lots of ISK from other players = good.
Manipulating the market to make lots of ISK from NPCs = bad.
Montmazar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2012-06-23 20:44:15 UTC
Lexmana wrote:
Who said insurance fraud was not an exploit?


Everything is an exploit. The proper course for all EVE related activities which may or may not pose an advantage is to first petition the GMs for permission.

I would like to place some market orders myself but man these petitions are taking a while.
MagicAcid
Nullbear Tear Extractors
Hostile Intervention
#54 - 2012-06-23 20:46:40 UTC
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:
Just because game mechanics allow something does not mean it's not an exploit. Often it means they don't know about it or they haven't fixed it yet. The defense "the game allows me to do it so it should be allowed" is trying to get away on a technicality. You don't have to be warned or punished to exploit something unintended. It doesn't have to be fixed for you to be exploiting something that is unintended.

I love the list of things they did and asking which one is the exploit. I'm pretty sure if I had followed all those steps I would have lost ISK and wondered which part you left out. The part that was left out is where they analyzed and manipulated the market to make tons of ISK from NPCs. Your list is not complete because I can follow it to the letter and not make any ISK. You wanted a better analogy, ok...Buying and selling stocks is legal. Using information that not everyone has access to in order to make the buying and selling of stocks more profitable is not legal.

Blowing up ships to make a profit from the insurance was an exploit. Do you really think that was what was intended? It was a flaw in the design of it and people exploited that flaw.

This shouldn't be such a point of contention. How you define it is just silly, we all understand the problem. They used a flaw in the game design to make ISK in a way that was not intended.

Manipulating the market to make lots of ISK from other players = good.
Manipulating the market to make lots of ISK from NPCs = bad.


What I did is not that far from designing your fleets around insurance so the losses are minimal.
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#55 - 2012-06-23 20:50:54 UTC
MagicAcid wrote:


What I did is not that far from designing your fleets around insurance so the losses are minimal.


Did you purposely blow up ships to make a profit from NPC's from insurance? Do you think it was the intention of the game designers for you to make a PROFIT off insurance, or do you think maybe they thought it would PARTIALLY pay for your ship and help ease the burden of the loss?
Montmazar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2012-06-23 20:52:29 UTC
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:
MagicAcid wrote:


What I did is not that far from designing your fleets around insurance so the losses are minimal.


Did you purposely blow up ships to make a profit from NPC's from insurance? Do you think it was the intention of the game designers for you to make a PROFIT off insurance, or do you think maybe they thought it would PARTIALLY pay for your ship and help ease the burden of the loss?


Do you think it was the intention of the game designers for activating a microwarpdrive for one pulse to be able to make larger ships be able to warp within 10 seconds?

CCP please ban everyone.
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#57 - 2012-06-23 20:54:29 UTC
Montmazar wrote:


Do you think it was the intention of the game designers for activating a microwarpdrive for one pulse to be able to make larger ships be able to warp within 10 seconds?



Maybe it was.
Montmazar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2012-06-23 20:56:14 UTC
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:
Montmazar wrote:


Do you think it was the intention of the game designers for activating a microwarpdrive for one pulse to be able to make larger ships be able to warp within 10 seconds?



Maybe it was.


Yes clearly no doubt.

Listen, exploiter, I'm not messing with ANY kind of prop mod until this gets fairly and reasonably petitioned. Exploiters like you are RUINING this game.
Ghost Xray
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#59 - 2012-06-23 20:56:53 UTC
MagicAcid wrote:
Innywuhne wrote:
for this project you talk about on the first page, did you have your alts shoot you and salvage? or did you do something to trigger a response from other players to speed things up? did random people blow you up? or always someone under your control? i'm just trying to wrap my head around what must have been required to blow up hundreds of ships. if you were able to do it totally solo with alts, well thats amazing. with help from friends its slightly less impressive, but still a pretty massive undertaking.


I hauled minerals for, manufactured, insured, and blew up hundreds of ships a day.

I am also proud to say I found ways to do this efficiently without any macros or even mouseclick broadcasting.

Anyways I had some help from people for supplying minerals, but sometimes I went days hauling it all myself with only 2 freighters and an orca.

If I had 12 alts at the time instead of just 3 I could have destroyed a ship every few seconds. Send me an evemail ingame and I can arrange to do it again on the test server and take a video :)

Also I popped 1 ship without insureing it :( and 1-2 with basic insurance.


Dude, I think you've been eating some of your MagicAcid.
MagicAcid
Nullbear Tear Extractors
Hostile Intervention
#60 - 2012-06-23 20:57:36 UTC
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:
MagicAcid wrote:


What I did is not that far from designing your fleets around insurance so the losses are minimal.


Did you purposely blow up ships to make a profit from NPC's from insurance? Do you think it was the intention of the game designers for you to make a PROFIT off insurance, or do you think maybe they thought it would PARTIALLY pay for your ship and help ease the burden of the loss?


I shared your belief until I specifically asked CCP and they told me it was 100% allowed.