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What is "Over-Tanked" for running L4 missions?

Author
Mystic Lore Arcanium
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2012-06-22 15:23:38 UTC
I'm trying to find that sweet balance between Tank and Gank, for running L4 missions.
Currently I have a ship that I would consider to be overtanked. It is an omni-tanked Tengu, perma-boosted, and I can draw full room aggro without barely disturbing my shields unless I get webbed. I would like to back off the shields though and fit better DPS mods, or even a missile rig. But, how much can I sacrifice before I'm too undertanked to solo L4's?

Opinions please?

Mystic Lore Arcanium
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2012-06-22 15:32:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Mystic Lore Arcanium
To anticipate the question, here is the fit I'm currently running.
It's a fairly good fit, and even with twin deadspace boosters costs less than 850 mil.
So it's reasonably priced.

Tengu Fit

Subsystems:
Defense - Amplification Node
Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst

High Slots:
6x Heavy Missile Launcher II's

Mid Slots:
2x Gistii C-type Small Shield Boosters
Shield Boost Amplifier II
2x Adaptive Invulnerability Field II's
10MN Afterburner II

Low Slots:
Damage Control II
3x Ballistic Control System II's

Rigs:
2x CCC II's
Anti- EM II
I'm just wanting to get more DPS output from it, and am willing to sacrifice some tanking.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-06-22 16:34:27 UTC
Mystic Lore Arcanium wrote:
To anticipate the question, here is the fit I'm currently running.
It's a fairly good fit, and even with twin deadspace boosters costs less than 850 mil.
So it's reasonably priced.

Tengu Fit

Subsystems:
Defense - Amplification Node
Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst

High Slots:
6x Heavy Missile Launcher II's

Mid Slots:
2x Gistii C-type Small Shield Boosters
Shield Boost Amplifier II
2x Adaptive Invulnerability Field II's
10MN Afterburner II

Low Slots:
Damage Control II
3x Ballistic Control System II's

Rigs:
2x CCC II's
Anti- EM II
I'm just wanting to get more DPS output from it, and am willing to sacrifice some tanking.


Drop dc for 4 faction bcs. Drop rigs for 3 rigors. Use specific hardners. Otherwise good.Smile
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#4 - 2012-06-22 16:40:46 UTC
i fly all missions with 1x pith a-type small, 2x invul II and 1x passive EM II. never had to warp out

I should buy an Ishtar.

Sir Livingston
Doomheim
#5 - 2012-06-22 16:43:50 UTC
some people will consider having a damage control on a pve ship to be overtanked because it's like a safety net you more than likely never need

instead you could swap in a 4th ballistic and clear missions/anomalies/combat sites faster

Sci-fi games as played by an earthbound human in the 21st century http://www.youtube.com/JonnyPew

Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#6 - 2012-06-22 16:46:57 UTC
DCU is nice, but not necessary, especially for a pema-boosting shield ship. The above poster is correct.. use 4 BCU's, swap rigs for rigors. You can probably even keep the invulns for omni-tanking.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.

sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2012-06-22 16:51:25 UTC
With the amount of structural hp Tengu has... dcu won't save you, not from rats, not even from suicide gankers. Anything else would be more useful.
Apolyon I
Shadow of ISW
#8 - 2012-06-22 17:57:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Apolyon I
Daniel Plain wrote:
i fly all missions with 1x pith a-type small, 2x invul II and 1x passive EM II. never had to warp out

I dont run mission but have a lil knowledge about ship fitting.

so if what this guy says is true. I think OP can drop 1 booster for 1 TP.

DC is fine, 4th BCU wouldn't do much anyway. drop EM rig, fit rigor.

OP can also upgrade to faction BCU but try to keep it under 1b to avoid suicide gank.

with small booster OP probably don't need 2 CCC II, adjust accordingly
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#9 - 2012-06-22 21:16:02 UTC
here i am bragging about how little tank i fly and then i go ahead and bump into a structure and lose my ship. fortunately all but one BCU dropped as well as the shield booster so i could recover about 1/3 of the total loss but yea... i'll probably fit a DCU on my next hull just so this kind of fail does not happen again.

I should buy an Ishtar.

Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
CAStabouts
#10 - 2012-06-22 21:33:36 UTC
Fit about as much tank as you need to survive a particular mission, then add just a tad more for the inevitable oshit moment.

I used to fly a hyperion that had about 120dps sustainable tank...

thhief ghabmoef

Arazel Chainfire
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2012-06-23 01:28:22 UTC
Lvl 4 missions, on average, needs about 1000dps combined tank/gank to do effectively, with a minimum for both tank and gank of around 250ish. This number comes from if you are flying a battleship class vessel and not moving - speed tanking reduces the tank requirements, allowing you to have under that number. Do note, this is including applied dps - if you want to fly a blaster ship around most of the time, you are going to need more tank, even if you do 1500+dps gank.

This is of course assuming that things haven't really changed in the past 2 years, because that is about how long it has been since I've run a mission. But considering that these are lvl 4's and CCP we're talking about here, that is a fairly safe assumption.

-Arazel
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#12 - 2012-06-23 05:40:36 UTC
try running your fit but leaving one booster off just to see how that feels. should let you get rid of the cccs at least and add some gank rigs.

this is what I've been flying lately. note the name, and that it applies to other players not rats. and even there the DCII doesn't even add 10k ehp. hmm looks like swapping to a rf 10mn ab would make it cap stable giving up a mid slot for something! hmm now do I cover the EM or EXP hole?!?! or mayhaps swap the defensive sub to adaptive shielding and pick up an auto targeter for +3 targets?
[Tengu, Heavy Paranoia]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Damage Control II

Pithi B-Type Small Shield Booster
EM Ward Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Experimental 10MN Afterburner I
Cap Recharger II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile

Medium Bay Loading Accelerator II
Medium Warhead Flare Catalyst I
Medium Warhead Flare Catalyst I

Tengu Defensive - Supplemental Screening
Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#13 - 2012-06-23 19:54:00 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
try running your fit but leaving one booster off just to see how that feels. should let you get rid of the cccs at least and add some gank rigs.

this is what I've been flying lately. note the name, and that it applies to other players not rats. and even there the DCII doesn't even add 10k ehp. hmm looks like swapping to a rf 10mn ab would make it cap stable giving up a mid slot for something! hmm now do I cover the EM or EXP hole?!?! or mayhaps swap the defensive sub to adaptive shielding and pick up an auto targeter for +3 targets?
[Tengu, Heavy Paranoia]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Damage Control II

Pithi B-Type Small Shield Booster
EM Ward Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Experimental 10MN Afterburner I
Cap Recharger II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile

Medium Bay Loading Accelerator II
Medium Warhead Flare Catalyst I
Medium Warhead Flare Catalyst I

Tengu Defensive - Supplemental Screening
Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst



jesus christ what's wrong with you?

I should buy an Ishtar.

Boomhaur
#14 - 2012-06-23 20:10:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Boomhaur
Don't have EFT or Eve on the computer I am on so I am going off memory. I use something along the lines of this but this is an easier to fit version, mine uses a Large Ancillary Shield Booster not a medium, and requires implant slots 1/4/6 to be used 1/4 were genolution something Ca 1&2, and powergrid implant for slot 6.

standard setup for subsystems, dissolution and supllemental screening i think it was called the one with bounus to shield boosters, etc. If I remember I post the full setups latter on today or tommrow depending on if I remember and when I get access to my computer.

lows
4x T2 BCU's (I can't justify CN BCU's with how little I mission run though it would greatly benefit this built with CPU constraints)

Mids
T2 10mn AB
small pithi C shield booster
3x shield resist amplifiers (can almost fit all T2 of these if you have perfect skills, implants mentioned above help)
1 medium ancillary shield booster

Highs
6x T2 HML

Rigs
2x T2 Rigs
1x T2 Flare

If you wanted to swap to a large ancillary shield booster like I did you required the implants I mentioned and probably use CN BCU's or faction or meta shield resists or even a combo to fit due to cpu constraints. CN BCUs may give you enough CPU to use active hardeners, I am not sure as I don't have access to anything at this time really to check.

Ancillary shield booster works as a good GTFO of jail free card or to supplement your tank in case you don't properly manage aggro, or you can just overload your shield booster repairs are cheap on it. I ended up burning out my shield booster when I was lagging too bad and though I disconected in a mission but didn't so the booster kept going till I eventually shut down my computer since it wasn't responding, repairs for that booster were around 11k and a total of 110k for everything which were mainly the AB and large ancillary shield booster. Typically repairs are less than 10k if I had to overload for a minute or so if I mismanage aggro.

Welcome to Eve. Everyone here is an Evil Sick Sadistic Bastard who is out to get you. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either trying to scam you or use you.

Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#15 - 2012-06-24 04:33:06 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
jesus christ what's wrong with you?

where should we start?

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Bibosikus
Air
#16 - 2012-06-24 09:18:56 UTC
Mystic Lore Arcanium wrote:
... I can draw full room aggro without barely disturbing my shields...


That there is where you start. The only reason to draw full aggro is for afk missioning. If you're doing that, then leave the DCU on and keep an ear out for the low shield warning.

Otherwise, start learning triggers and manage aggro, and you're tank can be minimal.

Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

Mystic Lore Arcanium
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2012-06-24 13:02:29 UTC
Bibosikus wrote:
Mystic Lore Arcanium wrote:
... I can draw full room aggro without barely disturbing my shields...


That there is where you start. The only reason to draw full aggro is for afk missioning. If you're doing that, then leave the DCU on and keep an ear out for the low shield warning.

Otherwise, start learning triggers and manage aggro, and you're tank can be minimal.


That is the situation that I currently have, and DO NOT WANT.
I run missions to earn ISK for my PvP habit, unfortunately I lose a lot so PvP is not profitable to me yet.
Having so much tank that I can sit webbed in "The Assault" and go AFK for a cigarette is not much of a challenge for me.
But, I'm not wanting to spend all day kiting in a Drake either...
Dato Koppla
Spaghetti Militia
#18 - 2012-06-24 16:30:19 UTC
Well if you just pay some attention and manage triggers/aggro you can gank out your tengu with 700+ dps or even hit 800 with implants (with heavies that shoot out to lock range), you get slightly less on cruisers/frigs though because you need to use faction/t1 on them(destroyers can be instapopped with 3 launchers with either ammo).

I run a 4-slot tank Pith C-Type small, a t2 shield boost amp and 2 t2 MISSION SPECIFIC HARDENERS its not that hard, there are like 4 main pirate factions, just bring them in your cargo, it gives you alot more tank and allows you to go cheap on the other tank mods, stop omnitanking for missions. 3 faction BCUs and 1 T2 because upgrading the last one is a 1 digit change in dps, and an RF burner because they are quite cheap when I got em. T2 bay loading accelerator + 2 t1 flares + target painter is how I roll and I've tested the variations with rigors and I like this best because in an L4 most time is spent shooting high EHP BS, small stuff can be cleaned up really quick with faction ammo so the advantage rigors gives is quickly outweighed by the t2 dps rig because of how stacking penalties work it gives a big chunk of extra dps even with 4 BCUs.

I've run almost every non-faction kill mission at least 20 times and never even dipped into armor or anything, so yeah it's perfectly possible if you're willing to pay some attention.
Kolmogorow
Freedom Resources
#19 - 2012-06-24 23:27:48 UTC
Your ship is overtanked if you can finish a mission with more than 10% shield or armor (depending on tank type) and if you can make a small mistake without losing your ship.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#20 - 2012-06-25 00:55:19 UTC
Dato Koppla wrote:
t2 MISSION SPECIFIC HARDENERS

note that unless you have an em hardener (or invlun) your ehp to republic fleet emp is less than that of a tornado volley. and anyways pithi booster + sba + em + invlun, will tank every level 4 just fine and put your ehp up to a slightly safer amount.

Kolmogorow wrote:
Your ship is overtanked if you can finish a mission with more than 10% shield or armor (depending on tank type) and if you can make a small mistake without losing your ship.

hardcore mode!

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

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