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How is this an exploit when insurance fruad was not?
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MagicAcid
Nullbear Tear Extractors
Hostile Intervention
#21 - 2012-06-23 19:10:53 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
MagicAcid wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
Simetraz wrote:
So if you purchase a battleship then pay for the Plat insurance and self destruct it.
You get back more then the cost of the insurance + the cost of the battleship ?




He's talking complete ****. You could make a few million at most from each ship you did this with when the ship price was crap, but in order to make tens of billions you'd have to do this thousands of times!

For this reason I say this guy is talking out of his RollRollRoll


http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/QEN/QEN_Q3-2010.pdf
Page 35 and 36
(on page 36 look at how The Citadel has the most losses)
Here is my add for minerals:
http://www.bsacse.amxg4.com/classifieds/index.php?id=magic

I had 40 manufacturing slots at the time and kept them building 24/7 for months, along with multiple alts to do the ship destruction and salvaging.

I hope to do this again some day, even if I don't make too much isk.


Well the RollRollRollRoll done. You made a small amount of ISK and the fact that you went into it with 40 manufacturing slots working 24/7 demonstrates beyond any reasonable doubt that you are a complete **** moron!


I didn't just do it to make isk, I did it to prove that the game was broken too since CCP did not agree.
Lexmana
#22 - 2012-06-23 19:14:54 UTC
MagicAcid wrote:

I didn't just do it to make isk, I did it to prove that the game was broken too since CCP did not agree.

That kind of define it as an exploit don't you think?
MagicAcid
Nullbear Tear Extractors
Hostile Intervention
#23 - 2012-06-23 19:19:34 UTC
Lexmana wrote:
MagicAcid wrote:

I didn't just do it to make isk, I did it to prove that the game was broken too since CCP did not agree.

That kind of define it as an exploit don't you think?


Not really since I did nothing outside the design of the system. If I found a way to make the feature not work as intended, like some way to collect the insurance money without losing the ship, or insure multiple ships at once, or insure a ship for free... it would be an exploit, but doing exactly what CCP intended, just on a larger scale is not.
Lexmana
#24 - 2012-06-23 19:21:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Lexmana
Seems I quoted the wrong page in wikipedia before. There are several definitions. One is related to computer security and another to video gaming and it is quoted below:
Quote:
An exploit, in video games, is the use of a bug or design flaw including glitches, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.[1]
AureoBroker
Perkone
Caldari State
#25 - 2012-06-23 19:22:31 UTC
Insurance "fraud" had a cap.

In the same way, this would not be a problem if just freighters of minerals were bombed.
Lexmana
#26 - 2012-06-23 19:25:34 UTC
MagicAcid wrote:
Lexmana wrote:
MagicAcid wrote:

I didn't just do it to make isk, I did it to prove that the game was broken too since CCP did not agree.

That kind of define it as an exploit don't you think?


Not really since I did nothing outside the design of the system. If I found a way to make the feature not work as intended, like some way to collect the insurance money without losing the ship, or insure multiple ships at once, or insure a ship for free... it would be an exploit, but doing exactly what CCP intended, just on a larger scale is not.

So you mean CCP intended for insurance to pay more than the ship was worth? Why did they patch it then?
Fix Lag
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2012-06-23 19:26:42 UTC
I'm gonna walk through what they did, step by step, and you tell me where the exploit occurs.

1. They loaded expensive stuff into freighters. Was this the exploit?
2. They shot said freighters with FW alts, and were rewarded with LP. Was this the exploit?
3. They upgraded FW systems. Was this the exploit?
4. They bought half-priced datacores. Was this the exploit?
5. They blew up half-priced datacores. Was this the exploit?
6. They bought a bunch of horribly worthless FW-reward implants. Was this the exploit?
7. They traded the FW-reward implants among themselves. Was this the exploit?
8. They waited for the price to be updated by CCP. Was this the exploit?
9. They then blew up said implants. Was this the exploit?

I'd like you to point out the part where it was an exploit. Was it buying things on the market? Was it blowing things up? Was it selling things on the market? Was it upgrading FW systems?

Please, tell me which part of this was not allowed.

CCP mostly sucks at their job, but Veritas is a pretty cool dude.
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2012-06-23 19:33:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
Insurance fraud probably was an exploit in the sense that a flawed game mechanic was abused in an obviously unintended way.

However,

* it didn't affect one of the flagship features of CCP's most recent expansion

* the impact on the market (increasing demand for minerals) may have been considered beneficial by some; there was considerable uncertainty how far mineral prices would drop (and what this would do to mining) without it

* it created a price floor that was hit after a "natural" decline of mineral prices, not a price ceiling that sits at 5-10% of the market price pre-exploit.

* tutorials and detailed guides on insurance fraud were published early on - leading to massive use of the exploit by many players (with great variation in scale/individual effort) which probably would have made implementation of rollbacks/penalties very time-consuming for CCP.

* the scale of organized insurance fraud by single players was not widely advertised outside of trade channels, people didn't brag about their profits (discussion was centered around ways to make the fraud more efficient - using station guns instead of self destruct, salvaging the wrecks, ...).

.
MagicAcid
Nullbear Tear Extractors
Hostile Intervention
#29 - 2012-06-23 19:33:47 UTC
I hope they explain their reasoning, I have been busy with work so I have not had the time to pull off something similar to this again, but I am not short on opportunities.

Anyways if they BAN those goons or remove their assets it will set a precedent that will make the next time this happens 1000 times worse and a rollback will be required to fix it. The goons were extremely nice and didn't decide to create unlimited CNR and self destruct for insurance on a massive scale and then ruin all the markets in a way that cannot be repaired without a rollback on a Friday evening so CCP wouldn't have the resources ready to deal with it (or ruin the weekends for several CCP employes and customers) Also its not even an Exploit of game mechanics, its just **** poor design and the people responsible need to be sacked or have some other punishment.

If I was CCP I would have a conversation with these 5 people and ask them what they want in exchange for the LP and isk, something along the lines of a permanent monument to them in the game or renaming a few systems would make me happy.
Lexmana
#30 - 2012-06-23 19:38:01 UTC
Fix Lag wrote:
I'm gonna walk through what they did, step by step, and you tell me where the exploit occurs.

1. They loaded expensive stuff into freighters. Was this the exploit?
2. They shot said freighters with FW alts, and were rewarded with LP. Was this the exploit?
3. They upgraded FW systems. Was this the exploit?
4. They bought half-priced datacores. Was this the exploit?
5. They blew up half-priced datacores. Was this the exploit?
6. They bought a bunch of horribly worthless FW-reward implants. Was this the exploit?
7. They traded the FW-reward implants among themselves. Was this the exploit?
8. They waited for the price to be updated by CCP. Was this the exploit?
9. They then blew up said implants. Was this the exploit?

I'd like you to point out the part where it was an exploit. Was it buying things on the market? Was it blowing things up? Was it selling things on the market? Was it upgrading FW systems?

Please, tell me which part of this was not allowed.


1. Is it illegal to fire a gun?
2. Is it illegal to point a gun at someone?

Now tell me what makes someone guilty of murder.
Fix Lag
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2012-06-23 19:40:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Fix Lag
Vera Algaert wrote:
* it didn't affect one of the flagship features of CCP's most recent expansion


No **** sherlock--insurance prices have been set to fluctuate with mineral prices for a long time now. That's completely irrelevant.

Vera Algaert wrote:

* the impact on the market (increasing demand for minerals) may have been considered beneficial by some; there was considerable uncertainty how far mineral prices would drop (and what this would do to mining) without it


That statement could be applied to either situation. Also, CCP does not set market prices.

Vera Algaert wrote:
* it created a price floor that was hit after a "natural" decline of mineral prices, not a price ceiling that is 10-25x lower than the current market price at its introduction.


This would have resulted in the same "natural" decline of LP reward items.

Vera Algaert wrote:

* tutorials and detailed guides on insurance frauds were published early on - leading to massive use of the exploit by a many of players


Hardly an exploit when every single player who ever bought platinum insurance used it. Also, someone not telling you how they make money off the market is not someone committing an illegal exploit such as having their guns hit out to 250KM for full damage.

Vera Algaert wrote:

* the scale of organized insurance fraud by single players was not widely advertised outside of trade channels, people didn't brag about their profits (discussion was centered around ways to make the fraud more efficient - using station guns instead of self destruct, salvaging the wrecks, ...).


Oh, so because people bragged about being richer than you, it's an exploit. I think it's pretty obvious why so many people are upset that this was done--they wanted in on it, but didn't make any money. Jealousy does not make something against the rules.

CCP mostly sucks at their job, but Veritas is a pretty cool dude.
Fix Lag
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2012-06-23 19:42:44 UTC
Lexmana wrote:

1. Is it illegal to fire a gun?
2. Is it illegal to point a gun at someone?

Now tell me what makes someone guilty of murder.


what is this I don't even

CCP mostly sucks at their job, but Veritas is a pretty cool dude.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#33 - 2012-06-23 19:45:20 UTC
Reading about this, I think the big difference was the "recycling" of drops. The LP paid out for loot destroyed, from what I read, that included dropped items only. The fact they would pick up dropped items and blow it up again to get lp meant that they were getting alot more lp than what was destroyed. The mechanic stated that it would pay out to items destroyed and they made notice that stuff was not destroyed but they were giving the payout means exploit in my eyes.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#34 - 2012-06-23 19:47:31 UTC
Lexmana wrote:


1. Is it illegal to fire a gun?
2. Is it illegal to point a gun at someone?

Now tell me what makes someone guilty of murder.


Both are needed to make somebody guilty of murder. If only one happens:

1. Manslaughter if somebody dies or else assorted laws for unlawful discharge of fire arm
2. Pointing can be considered assault or some other laws in regards to threat

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
MagicAcid
Nullbear Tear Extractors
Hostile Intervention
#35 - 2012-06-23 19:49:27 UTC
Markus Reese wrote:
Reading about this, I think the big difference was the "recycling" of drops. The LP paid out for loot destroyed, from what I read, that included dropped items only. The fact they would pick up dropped items and blow it up again to get lp meant that they were getting alot more lp than what was destroyed. The mechanic stated that it would pay out to items destroyed and they made notice that stuff was not destroyed but they were giving the payout means exploit in my eyes.


Even without that part they still made it work.
Fix Lag
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2012-06-23 19:51:39 UTC
And CCP also stated in the beginning that they wanted it to work that way, so...if that's an illegal exploit, uh, well, frankly I just have no words for you because words won't persuade you of anything.

CCP mostly sucks at their job, but Veritas is a pretty cool dude.
Lexmana
#37 - 2012-06-23 19:52:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Lexmana
Fix Lag wrote:
Lexmana wrote:

1. Is it illegal to fire a gun?
2. Is it illegal to point a gun at someone?

Now tell me what makes someone guilty of murder.


what is this I don't even

I know. It is difficult. You have to see the whole picture and not everybody can do it.

But this is the exploit they used (I actually thought you knew but ... hell I will explain it for you). 1.) They manipulated the price of an item in order to 2) cash in LP on that item based on the manipulated price in 1). The two are not an exploit in isolation. The two of them combined with the intention to make an unfair shitload amount of LP is an exploit.

The perpetrators themselves knew it was an exploit. Or why do you think they reported it to CCP?
MagicAcid
Nullbear Tear Extractors
Hostile Intervention
#38 - 2012-06-23 19:54:29 UTC
Lexmana wrote:
Fix Lag wrote:
Lexmana wrote:

1. Is it illegal to fire a gun?
2. Is it illegal to point a gun at someone?

Now tell me what makes someone guilty of murder.


what is this I don't even

I know. It is difficult. You have to see the whole picture and not everybody can do it.

But this is the exploit they used (I actually though you know but ... hell). 1.) They manipulated the price of an item in order to 2) cash in LP on that item based on the manipulated price in 1). The two are not an exploit in isolation. The two of them combined with the intention to make an unfair shitload amount of LP is an exploit.

The perpetrators themselves knew it was an exploit. Or why do you think they reported it to CCP?


They reported it to CCP to make fun of CCP and show them how stupid they are to hopefully make them change it before others did the same making their efforts pointless.
Fix Lag
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2012-06-23 19:55:08 UTC
They told CCP because, like static insurance, it was CCP doing a dumb thing.

CCP doing dumb things is not new. Titans were dumb. I don't see anyone having been banned for using a titan doomsday or blapping a frigate with their ship, now, have you?

There is no rule against using CCP's legitimate game mechanics for profit.

CCP mostly sucks at their job, but Veritas is a pretty cool dude.
Lexmana
#40 - 2012-06-23 19:55:55 UTC
MagicAcid wrote:
[They reported it to CCP to make fun of CCP and show them how stupid they are to hopefully make them change it before others did the same making their efforts pointless.

But why would CCP patch it if it was intended behavior and not an exploit? It doesn't make any sense.