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Goons 4x4ing through the Sandbox - Market Manipulation on a Grand Scale

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Xython
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2601 - 2012-06-23 16:40:14 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Man, only here would they have the hubris to argue the GMs are wrong and they are right. If CCP gives in to them its pretty much over lol
They will OFFICIALLY have lost control


If they do an investigation, and find that the 5 Goon Heroes that did this did not exploit any flaws in the game, and thus are pretty much honor bound to give the assets back... then it's not really "losing control". It's "doing what's right."

Oh, sorry, I forgot. Screwing Goons is always "what's right", even if it damages EVE.
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2602 - 2012-06-23 16:41:11 UTC
Aww Sreegs... Don't leave already...

Sugar Von MurdererTits : Jake Warbird gets my vote for most intriguing and attractive male character in Eve.
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#2603 - 2012-06-23 16:41:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Cygnet Lythanea
Xython wrote:
Screwing Goons is always "what's right", even if it damages EVE.



Mostly because those two things are, generally speaking, mutually exclusive.

and, did I just hear a goon whine about 'what's right?' Excuse me if I find that ******* hilarious.
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#2604 - 2012-06-23 16:41:59 UTC
Kazanir wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


2. Maybe, just maybe, you guys at CCP will start listening to your player base before rolling out changes.


maybe, just maybe listening to the rest of the playerbase OVER the goons
not the other war round


We tried to warn CCP repeatedly about the design flaw of using market averages for single items well before Inferno was released. No one listened.


Proof positive the test server is there to hope exploits make it into game

Which made it totally ok to abuse. Right?

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Danfen Fenix
#2605 - 2012-06-23 16:43:02 UTC
Xython wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Man, only here would they have the hubris to argue the GMs are wrong and they are right. If CCP gives in to them its pretty much over lol
They will OFFICIALLY have lost control


If they do an investigation, and find that the 5 Goon Heroes that did this did not exploit any flaws in the game, and thus are pretty much honor bound to give the assets back... then it's not really "losing control". It's "doing what's right."

Oh, sorry, I forgot. Screwing Goons is always "what's right", even if it damages EVE.


Last I checked, I thought the community pretty much thought goons had CCP in their back pockets?

What happened? Something not go your way, so suddenly everyones out to get you ? P
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#2606 - 2012-06-23 16:44:31 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Maggie Maggie wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Comparing removing the manipulated assets of a small number of people to a complete redesign of the game may just win the prize.


Hear me out. While I am a goon and of course I do feel that a member of my tribe is under attack, I'm speaking as a player.

EVE has always been an open sandbox where players are allowed and encouraged to do things that materially affect the game. That is the one thing that sets EVE apart from every other MMO. There are other spaceship games. There are other games with a functioning market. There are other games where clever players do better than dumb people.

EVE has always been an open sandbox. If a player is afraid to experiment and push the game in new directions for fear that, should they win too big, they will lose everything, then that is not an open sandbox.

EVE has always been an open sandbox. If that is no longer the case, that constitues a complete redesign. Please don't take that first step. I like the game how it is.


When do we get to the part where we stop pretending that a gap in the timing of value calculation (programming) wasn't what was being taken advantage of here? This wasn't just market manipulation it was taking advantage of a flaw in the code.


I should note that because of the way that the estimated price was calculated - a three month running average - that even if that timing value had run daily, our particular item would have maintained its price, as the volume before and after we bought & sold it to adjust the price would have remained consistent. On any given day up to 90 days after the fact, it would have looked back and said "yep, X units sold, and whoa, 1/2X of those were sold at a really high price, so I guess that makes the average (a really big number)"

Assuming we're right about it's mechanism, of course.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#2607 - 2012-06-23 16:45:23 UTC
Kazanir wrote:
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
but don't forget, it's all actually their virtual stuff on their servers.

stuff that goons decided to screw with for the lulz
(edit: i'm sorry, to screw with for the betterment of mankind. the trillions of stuff in their assets window was just... well lets not worry about that right?)

it wouldn't be uncalled for for them to freeze every account related to this until they figured out the best way to reverse the snafu your buddies caused

playing the victim just doesn't work for you, though it's delicious to watch


Edit: To be clear, you are essentially right. The damage needed fixing, period.

In my opinion, what CCP should have done was:

1. Freeze all the accounts with a 7-day suspension.
2. IMMEDIATELY send e-mails to all of the players affected saying something like:

"Hey guys,

What you did was pretty creative and lots of us think it was cool. Furthermore, we owe you a thank you for coming clean about it. Nevertheless it was a clear design flaw and we can't allow this scale of damage to the economy to remain.

Because of that we're locking your accounts for investigation and we plan to remove most of the ISK/assets gained through this infinite loop. Our goal here isn't to punish you but to remove the majority of the damage that would have been caused. Until our investigation is finished the accounts will have to remain locked but we'll compensate you for the account time."

3. Immediately post the same thing on the forums in press-release form.
4. Have PR flunkies saying the same thing to the press.

No one really is disputing that they do need to fix the economic damage, but they are going about it hamfistedly, with poor public communication, conflicting statements (Xhagen and Manifest talking to the press.)


TOTALLY doesnt sound like CCP at all.

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#2608 - 2012-06-23 16:45:30 UTC
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:
sort of like finding out your sandbox has razor blades hidden in the sand


This is called Karma. Karma is a **tch.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Andrea Roche
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2609 - 2012-06-23 16:46:28 UTC
Xython wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Man, only here would they have the hubris to argue the GMs are wrong and they are right. If CCP gives in to them its pretty much over lol
They will OFFICIALLY have lost control


If they do an investigation, and find that the 5 Goon Heroes that did this did not exploit any flaws in the game, and thus are pretty much honor bound to give the assets back... then it's not really "losing control". It's "doing what's right."

Oh, sorry, I forgot. Screwing Goons is always "what's right", even if it damages EVE.


correct me if am i wrong but didnt they ruled in your favour regarding Goons getting perma wardecked? yes
didnt they also ruled in your favour in allowing perma hulkageddon? yes
Tallon Sylph
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2610 - 2012-06-23 16:46:46 UTC
corestwo wrote:

Assuming we're right about it's mechanism, of course.


At this point I think CCP should be asking you guys how this all works, they really don't even know what.
Ariel Marquette
Doomheim
#2611 - 2012-06-23 16:47:16 UTC
Xython wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Man, only here would they have the hubris to argue the GMs are wrong and they are right. If CCP gives in to them its pretty much over lol
They will OFFICIALLY have lost control


If they do an investigation, and find that the 5 Goon Heroes that did this did not exploit any flaws in the game, and thus are pretty much honor bound to give the assets back... then it's not really "losing control". It's "doing what's right."

Oh, sorry, I forgot. Screwing Goons is always "what's right", even if it damages EVE.


How precisely would EVE be damaged? Generally speaking, screwing Goons is synonymous with making EVE better.
Maggie Maggie
Perkone
Caldari State
#2612 - 2012-06-23 16:48:01 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
This is called Karma. Karma is a **tch.


There's no such thing. Next thing you'll be saying you believe in elves.
Rocken Saken
Atomic Blastonomics
#2613 - 2012-06-23 16:48:25 UTC
I'm just not understanding how you guys don't consider this an exploit of the LP reward system.

You guys rig the automated value estimation of an item from the LP store to be artificially high (Not its free market value, since you're doing all the buying and selling to yourself basically), until the automated system is fooled into thinking "Hey, maybe this can of Quafe IS worth 1 Billion Isk!" (Not the actual item), then blow it up to get more LP than you injected into the system, making LP out of nowhere, and then selling the rewards from such LP into the actual market. Saying that you didn't create any isk is irrelevant, it's similar to someone duping items, selling them into the market, and saying "Well, it wasn't isk, so you can't touch me!"

If you had truly wanted to show the proof of concept of this issue, you would have done so in the test server; as it is, you simply used an exploit to gain resources, and now are crying because the devs have to clean up your mess.

The fact that the system is a sandbox only means that the devs have quite a bit more issues with unintended consequences, which is why they have test servers where players would commonly report bugs, or show proof of concepts of issues they might predict, not as a staging area for corps to prepare a strategy to make use of an exploit when the patch goes live.
LoveFromAbove
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2614 - 2012-06-23 16:48:43 UTC
yes but that would interfere with ccp's vision of always traveling the path of most resistance
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#2615 - 2012-06-23 16:48:49 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Kazanir wrote:
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
but don't forget, it's all actually their virtual stuff on their servers.

stuff that goons decided to screw with for the lulz
(edit: i'm sorry, to screw with for the betterment of mankind. the trillions of stuff in their assets window was just... well lets not worry about that right?)

it wouldn't be uncalled for for them to freeze every account related to this until they figured out the best way to reverse the snafu your buddies caused

playing the victim just doesn't work for you, though it's delicious to watch


Edit: To be clear, you are essentially right. The damage needed fixing, period.

In my opinion, what CCP should have done was:

1. Freeze all the accounts with a 7-day suspension.
2. IMMEDIATELY send e-mails to all of the players affected saying something like:

"Hey guys,

What you did was pretty creative and lots of us think it was cool. Furthermore, we owe you a thank you for coming clean about it. Nevertheless it was a clear design flaw and we can't allow this scale of damage to the economy to remain.

Because of that we're locking your accounts for investigation and we plan to remove most of the ISK/assets gained through this infinite loop. Our goal here isn't to punish you but to remove the majority of the damage that would have been caused. Until our investigation is finished the accounts will have to remain locked but we'll compensate you for the account time."

3. Immediately post the same thing on the forums in press-release form.
4. Have PR flunkies saying the same thing to the press.

No one really is disputing that they do need to fix the economic damage, but they are going about it hamfistedly, with poor public communication, conflicting statements (Xhagen and Manifest talking to the press.)


What we do with individuals is never a public matter. It never was and it never will be. The public communication will focus on what's been done to the group and the overall impact. I won't deny that nobody should have been speaking to the press and that that has been managed poorly.


Doesnt that attempt at making such info public usually get moderated being that its discussing normally banned stuff here an all. But its nice that youre being so lenient

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#2616 - 2012-06-23 16:50:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Cygnet Lythanea
Maggie Maggie wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
This is called Karma. Karma is a **tch.


There's no such thing. Next thing you'll be saying you believe in elves.



Or games where exploits aren't punished with permabans. Oh, wait....

BTW: Sir Molle's version was, and I quote: "There's no such thing. Next thing you'll tell me is you believe in the tooth fairy."

But that time it was goons talking about karma.

My, we have come full circle, haven't we?
Xython
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2617 - 2012-06-23 16:51:10 UTC
Danfen Fenix wrote:
Xython wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Man, only here would they have the hubris to argue the GMs are wrong and they are right. If CCP gives in to them its pretty much over lol
They will OFFICIALLY have lost control


If they do an investigation, and find that the 5 Goon Heroes that did this did not exploit any flaws in the game, and thus are pretty much honor bound to give the assets back... then it's not really "losing control". It's "doing what's right."

Oh, sorry, I forgot. Screwing Goons is always "what's right", even if it damages EVE.


Last I checked, I thought the community pretty much thought goons had CCP in their back pockets?

What happened? Something not go your way, so suddenly everyones out to get you ? P


CCP is in Goon pockets whenever CCP does something that people don't like.

CCP is the noble hero saving everyone from the evil Goons whenever CCP does somethign that people do like.

Goons are Goons either way.
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#2618 - 2012-06-23 16:51:41 UTC
Ariel Marquette wrote:
I am somewhat confused by some of the Goons' commentary here. They are repeatedly claiming that:

1) The game design / mechanics were used as intended.
2) It's not their fault if they thought about how it could be used this way and CCP didn't.

If point 2 is true, then how could point 1 possibly be true? CCP couldn't have intended for the design to be used in this way if they hadn't thought about it being used in this way.

Like it or not, CCP's designated employees are the arbiters of how their property may be used. They are well within their rights to do whatever they please to whomever they please within their game world, whether that seems completely arbitrary or not.

I applaud CCP's efforts to put some real thought into dealing with this situation. As a non-Goon, my solution would have simply been to start throwing Goons out of the game, given that they are so intent on ruining it for as many other people as possible. CCP's restraint is admirable.


I just think its funny how they are so arrogant here they think they can fight this and win when if the rest of us fight back (on the forums not in the game - woo shooting statues) we tend to be violating all manner of spam rules and locking threads etc. Goons have been on the recieving end of this. Remember the open letter to CCP and all during T20 where the forums were actually taken down to stop the threads that were being created?

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#2619 - 2012-06-23 16:52:58 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:

What we do with individuals is never a public matter. It never was and it never will be. The public communication will focus on what's been done to the group and the overall impact. I won't deny that nobody should have been speaking to the press and that that has been managed poorly.



Um, Sreegs, that's not quite accurate. I hate to sound like I'm defending these idiots, but CCP has, in the past, made some very public examples on occasion.


Yeah and you can say his name on the forums now

kugutsumen

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Tolokar
Perkone
Caldari State
#2620 - 2012-06-23 16:53:34 UTC
My question is why is Sreegs or CCP putting up with this? Why isn't this thread locked? Let the investigation occur and be done with it. If you know you didn't exploit or do something illegal you have nothing to worry about. If you did ... Well the. F*ck you and you got what you deserve for being scumbags.