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Goons 4x4ing through the Sandbox - Market Manipulation on a Grand Scale

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Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#2581 - 2012-06-23 16:29:40 UTC
Tallon Sylph wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Tallon Sylph wrote:
AureoBroker wrote:
Dear goons; again.
This is an exploit, that is a completely unintented use of game mechanics.


We didn't intend for this game mechanic to work in the way that we designed it to work even though people repeatedly told us it was dumb.


I can state 100% that we did not intend the mechanic to function this way.


Not working as intended?

Oh my.

Maybe you guys should make things better rather than going on asset grabbing rampages when a group of players understands the impact of your changes better than you do.



Just because a door is open, does not automatically mean that you should walk in.

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
Xython
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2582 - 2012-06-23 16:29:54 UTC
Imiarr Timshae wrote:
Just to save Screegs the typing:

The bottom line is you have to tolerate what we do or go make your own internet spaceship game to play.


The scary thing is, some of the BOB people that we threw out of EVE actually did that. Some mecha version of EVE. Very early in it's development but was kinda interesting.
Tallon Sylph
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2583 - 2012-06-23 16:30:23 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:


If that ever happens I'll agree with you.


So are you saying that you haven't gone asset grabbing... or that you didn't totally fail to comprehend the impact of your changes?
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#2584 - 2012-06-23 16:31:18 UTC
Ok I'm going to go watch The Footy. It's been a gas folks.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Tallon Sylph
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2585 - 2012-06-23 16:31:19 UTC
Cutter Isaacson wrote:


Just because a door is open, does not automatically mean that you should walk in.


Is the door located in an environment that is billed as being a sandbox?
Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#2586 - 2012-06-23 16:31:26 UTC
Imiarr Timshae wrote:
Just to save Screegs the typing:

The bottom line is you have to tolerate what we do or go make your own internet spaceship game to play.



The bottom line is clearly stated in the EULA that each and every player is required to agree to upon joining this game. Toleration is not required, but a basic grasp of the rules should be.

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#2587 - 2012-06-23 16:32:44 UTC  |  Edited by: corestwo
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Enaris Kerle wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
We haven't punished anyone to date. We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that.

Nobody is questioning whether you're in your right to do whatever you want with accounts, it's whether you're going to set a precedent for retroactively punishing people for doing things that were well within the design parameters of the game.


By that standard the ferrogel exploit was also within the parameters. I don't know why this seems to not be sinking in. All exploits were programmed.


It was like 30 pages ago and may have been already explained, but the ferrogel exploit actually wasn't within parameters of the game - the POS reactors or whatever were continuing to run even when the silos with the inputs were empty. That's clearly a glitch, and if there had been such a glaringly obvious glitch involved here, none of us would have touched it. Instead, there were intended and working game mechanics we used, and they actually worked quite brilliantly, the price estimator reacted very well to market conditions. Sure they were artificial market conditions, but then again, someone buying out all of an item to relist at double the price is an artificial market condition as well.

Or so we viewed it, anyway.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Andrea Roche
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2588 - 2012-06-23 16:32:46 UTC
Xython wrote:
Imiarr Timshae wrote:
Just to save Screegs the typing:

The bottom line is you have to tolerate what we do or go make your own internet spaceship game to play.


The scary thing is, some of the BOB people that we threw out of EVE actually did that. Some mecha version of EVE. Very early in it's development but was kinda interesting.


are you talking about the blue print insident? If so, the player is long gone and banned.
Imiarr Timshae
Funny Men In Funny Hats
#2589 - 2012-06-23 16:33:02 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Ok I'm going to go watch The Footy. It's been a gas folks.


Oh you card.

Personal Standings Services - Free 3rd Party & Collateral Holding Service - 7+ Day Old Corps for Highsec POS Sales
Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#2590 - 2012-06-23 16:33:53 UTC
Tallon Sylph wrote:
Cutter Isaacson wrote:


Just because a door is open, does not automatically mean that you should walk in.


Is the door located in an environment that is billed as being a sandbox?


As was said earlier, the key really is in that word you seem to be hung up on. All boxes have boundaries, they must in order for them to function, without boundaries there would be utter chaos and would bring about the demise of any system fairly rapidly. Until now those boundaries have, for the most part, seemed non-existent because no-one had really found them.

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
Haquer
Vorkuta Inc
#2591 - 2012-06-23 16:34:12 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Ok I'm going to go watch The Footy. It's been a gas folks.


If only you'd do the same to the thread.
Andrea Roche
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2592 - 2012-06-23 16:34:13 UTC
Tallon Sylph wrote:
Cutter Isaacson wrote:


Just because a door is open, does not automatically mean that you should walk in.


Is the door located in an environment that is billed as being a sandbox?


is the sandbox yours or theirs?
Ariel Marquette
Doomheim
#2593 - 2012-06-23 16:34:43 UTC
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
Holander Switzerland wrote:
Cutter Isaacson wrote:


I think you are sailing about as close to the wind as you can get Holander. You may want to take self enforced break, go and get some fresh air and do something else, before you say something else and get given a break.


Oh man, looking out for me. Where would I be without my wing-man, uh, er, whoever you are. I'm going to continue flying higher though and you can go back to being irrelevant.



In a game with this many players, we are each as relevant as one another. The fact that you choose to be rude and discourteous to someone merely offering honest advice says little for your character sir.


Friend, you do realize you're addressing a Goon, right? Character has never been their strong suit.
Xython
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2594 - 2012-06-23 16:36:03 UTC
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
Just because a door is open, does not automatically mean that you should walk in.


I work at a Casino as a Slot Technician. I repair the slot machines that people waste away college funds on.

If they malfunction -- a CODE ERROR -- and pay out a jackpot they're not supposed to, then that's on the player. They get nothing.

If they are misconfigured -- a DESIGN ERROR -- and they pay out more over time than they are supposed to, that's on us. The player gets everything (although we shut the machine down and swap it out).

The problem here is that this whole thing revolves around a design error. And traditionally, and ethically, CCP can't really nail someone for a design error. That's on them, unfortunately.

Now, what I really would like to do but haven't been able to do is as Aryth and Mynnna for a post-mortem on all this. "How could CCP have designed this feature better, preventing this kind of manipulation, while retaining the same general feel."

My incomplete knowledge of the whole thing would lead me to think that perhaps they should have had a flag set that noticed when the value of a particular item was jumping by X number of percent in a Y days, which would have prevented the market manipulation of prices that lead to the ISK/LP conversion factor hitting 81 isk/lp. But that's just me, I don't know the full specifics of the mechanic.
Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#2595 - 2012-06-23 16:36:48 UTC
Ariel Marquette wrote:
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
Holander Switzerland wrote:
Cutter Isaacson wrote:


I think you are sailing about as close to the wind as you can get Holander. You may want to take self enforced break, go and get some fresh air and do something else, before you say something else and get given a break.


Oh man, looking out for me. Where would I be without my wing-man, uh, er, whoever you are. I'm going to continue flying higher though and you can go back to being irrelevant.



In a game with this many players, we are each as relevant as one another. The fact that you choose to be rude and discourteous to someone merely offering honest advice says little for your character sir.


Friend, you do realize you're addressing a Goon, right? Character has never been their strong suit.



I will attempt rational discourse with anyone, until it becomes clear that it is impossible, and then I stop.

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#2596 - 2012-06-23 16:37:36 UTC
Luis Graca wrote:
So many people talking about the sandbox


Quick question whats a sandbox and it's limits?

For me i always thing it was a game were everyone plays together and doesn't have limits but now i'm kinda lost


Thought the magic circle was the limit...

Also anything CCP says is the limit usually. What CCP (you know, the owners of the game) say not what Goons (the players not the owners. The renters if you will) say.

Man, only here would they have the hubris to argue the GMs are wrong and they are right. If CCP gives in to them its pretty much over lol
They will OFFICIALLY have lost control

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#2597 - 2012-06-23 16:38:17 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Tallon Sylph wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Tallon Sylph wrote:
AureoBroker wrote:
Dear goons; again.
This is an exploit, that is a completely unintented use of game mechanics.


We didn't intend for this game mechanic to work in the way that we designed it to work even though people repeatedly told us it was dumb.


I can state 100% that we did not intend the mechanic to function this way.


Not working as intended?

Oh my.

Maybe you guys should make things better rather than going on asset grabbing rampages when a group of players understands the impact of your changes better than you do.


If that ever happens I'll agree with you.


"I'm telling you straight." - CCP Sreegs

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#2598 - 2012-06-23 16:38:23 UTC
Ariel Marquette wrote:

Friend, you do realize you're addressing a Goon, right? Character has never been their strong suit.


Oh, they're characters, all right. That's what makes this such a wonderful opportunity. It's rare that a major alliance gets *this* pissy with CCP, but goons have managed to do it twice in a few months!


To the tune of Rawhide!:
Trollin trollin trollin, get them posters trollin, goonswarm!
Holander Switzerland
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2599 - 2012-06-23 16:38:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Holander Switzerland
Richter Enderas wrote:
I've never seen goons act like such giant publords before.


Hey are you the guy what with is upset he can't say the n-word on fleet comms anymore?

this guy http://soundcloud.com/bonuscan/massive_rant

Edit: found this one too http://soundcloud.com/user3885713/20-more-minutes-of-sperging
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#2600 - 2012-06-23 16:39:35 UTC
Lapine Davion wrote:


"I'm telling you straight." - CCP Sreegs



It's better to do it with music.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7Ad1AuHriI