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Goons 4x4ing through the Sandbox - Market Manipulation on a Grand Scale

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Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#2541 - 2012-06-23 16:08:40 UTC
Maggie Maggie wrote:


Propaganda campaign makes it sound like we're coordinating our posts in some jabber channel. We're not.

Are we? Someone invite me to the channel, if we are.



Goonswarm is rather known for it.
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#2542 - 2012-06-23 16:08:40 UTC
Facepalm..

When will ccp get these issues right..

They really need to get the game designers to read up on biology/ecology..

PRO TIP: Negative Feedback, Population mechanic and and the REAL Circle of LIFE.

Abundant SUN = Abundant Grass -> negative feed back prey predator system..

Without better latteral integration and better negative feedbacks it all begs to be exploited..

CCP claims that its "known issues" and they are working on a fix is getting old, the problem arise from lack of vision of the mentioned mechanics..

EVE got an Economist, but maybe we need a biologist more..
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#2543 - 2012-06-23 16:09:12 UTC
Maggie Maggie wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Please do not twist my statements. I'm not part of your propaganda campaign and won't allow it to interfere with our official communications to our customers.


Propaganda campaign makes it sound like we're coordinating our posts in some jabber channel. We're not.

Are we? Someone invite me to the channel, if we are.


If what you're attributing to me is clearly not what I've said then I'm not sure how to phrase it but insert whatever word pleases you most there instead.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#2544 - 2012-06-23 16:09:57 UTC
Holander Switzerland wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:


I already addressed that. Please do not twist my statements. I'm not part of your propaganda campaign and won't allow it to interfere with our official communications to our customers.


Alright, I will not "twist" your words any longer, I will just state that they are nothing but words on a forum.


I think you are sailing about as close to the wind as you can get Holander. You may want to take self enforced break, go and get some fresh air and do something else, before you say something else and get given a break.

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
Tallon Sylph
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2545 - 2012-06-23 16:09:59 UTC
Is Eve still a sandbox? I'm pretty confused right now.
Richter Enderas
Kaesong Kosmonauts
#2546 - 2012-06-23 16:11:24 UTC
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:
Richter Enderas wrote:
I've never seen goons act like such giant publords before.


it's a shame i can't negrep you here as well


Hahahahahah you care about rep.

Shed some more crocodile tears, please.
Ryunosuke Kusanagi
#2547 - 2012-06-23 16:12:20 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Ryunosuke Kusanagi wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:


I can only speak for myself but I did not ever receive any detail whatsoever regarding this until after it had been taken advantage of. From anyone.

That being said we were aware that there was problems with the design and a fix had already been written for it.



Wait, if you knew of the problem and had a fix for it already, why did you NOT hotfix it?


This takes time to take effect. Hotfixing would have had 0 impact.


no no, from what you implied, is that you had known about the flaws from around the time it was released, and that you had already been working on a fix for it, or at least before all this went down. or am I misunderstanding what you said?
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#2548 - 2012-06-23 16:12:31 UTC
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
Haquer wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
and you're not qualified to discuss the matter because anything you type is hearsay


Oh damn son, you got me there.

Pack it in boys, the things that we heard straight from the people this happened to is hearsay.

We're finished. End of Goonswarm.


You repeating the words of others to use as a form of defence, as evidence of any kind, or in the course of a discussion IS hearsay. The only way it could be anything other than hearsay, is if you are the person it happened to.


EDIT: For the sake of clarity, the only people qualified to discuss this situation are those who were directly involved. That is to say the 8 people from Goonswarm who perpetrated the acts, and the staff at CCP. Everything else is conjecture and hearsay.


Huh this post moved... It used to be in the middle of the page

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Andrea Roche
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2549 - 2012-06-23 16:13:22 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Andrea Roche wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Kazanir wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
What we do with individuals is never a public matter. It never was and it never will be. The public communication will focus on what's been done to the group and the overall impact. I won't deny that nobody should have been speaking to the press and that that has been managed poorly.


This is a policy flaw.

First of all, one of the people speaking to the press was CCP Manifest. His official job title is PR and he's been at CCP for like...5 years. If he is talking to the press when he shouldn't, what kind of a PR guy is he? Damn.

Second, I appreciate that security teams always want to keep the results of investigations between them and the individuals. That's reasonable. But when you bungle the communication with the individuals in question (as CCP did this time) then it is going to have PR consequences when the players involved are like, "Hey, no one at CCP is talking to us and they even appear to have taken a bunch of assets that weren't connected to this! What the ****!"

If you want to avoid these types of PR issues then you absolutely need to get in front of the issue in a clear way. A single e-mail to the Faction Five stating your intentions could have avoided most of this shitstorm.


No matter what someone's title is if they don't have the details of investigations that haven't concluded yet they shouldn't be giving them to external parties. That was my point.

Communication with the people impacted certainly could have been handled better. That is my fault.


well if the investigation is still on going, there is not much you can say really, so any communication you give then can be drastically turn on its head since investigation has not concluded!


ugh you've found the fatal flaw in my statement :(


what i meant is you are NOT at fault. You cant speak about something you dont know specially when you dont know the facts so how goons expect you to release your findings before the facts are gathered, its beyond me!.
Xython
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2550 - 2012-06-23 16:13:25 UTC
So I just woke up from a couple hour nap -- has there been any actual updates rather than CCP Sreegs wading back into the murky depths of this thread and promptly getting trolled?
Tarsus Zateki
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2551 - 2012-06-23 16:13:29 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Spitfire
Ryunosuke Kusanagi wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Ryunosuke Kusanagi wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:


I can only speak for myself but I did not ever receive any detail whatsoever regarding this until after it had been taken advantage of. From anyone.

That being said we were aware that there was problems with the design and a fix had already been written for it.



Wait, if you knew of the problem and had a fix for it already, why did you NOT hotfix it?


This takes time to take effect. Hotfixing would have had 0 impact.


no no, from what you implied, is that you had known about the flaws from around the time it was released, and that you had already been working on a fix for it, or at least before all this went down. or am I misunderstanding what you said?


They knew this was a problem ever since our comments about it when it went live on SiSi and it still wasn't fixed. Please keep it civil. Spitfire

You asked me once, what was in Room 101. I told you that you knew the answer already. Everyone knows it. The thing that is in Room 101 is the worst thing in the world.
Kinis Deren
Mosquito Squadron
D0GS OF WAR
#2552 - 2012-06-23 16:13:56 UTC
Tallon Sylph wrote:
Is Eve still a sandbox? I'm pretty confused right now.


Yup, maybe just not the Goons exclusive sandbox, if confirmation of that was really needed Roll
Haquer
Vorkuta Inc
#2553 - 2012-06-23 16:14:32 UTC
Tallon Sylph wrote:
Is Eve still a sandbox? I'm pretty confused right now.


It is until you hit an arbitrary limit in which it's "abuse" and then get your assets seized.
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#2554 - 2012-06-23 16:14:58 UTC
Ryunosuke Kusanagi wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Ryunosuke Kusanagi wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:


I can only speak for myself but I did not ever receive any detail whatsoever regarding this until after it had been taken advantage of. From anyone.

That being said we were aware that there was problems with the design and a fix had already been written for it.



Wait, if you knew of the problem and had a fix for it already, why did you NOT hotfix it?


This takes time to take effect. Hotfixing would have had 0 impact.


no no, from what you implied, is that you had known about the flaws from around the time it was released, and that you had already been working on a fix for it, or at least before all this went down. or am I misunderstanding what you said?


I didn't imply since release. I implied prior to being notified.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
AureoBroker
Perkone
Caldari State
#2555 - 2012-06-23 16:15:10 UTC
Dear goons; again.
If anyone had come to ccp and asked "Can we do this?", you KNEW what answer you would've gotten. So, why you did it?

This is an exploit, that is a completely unintented use of game mechanics.
You can justify it in-lore if you want: Factions would never pay out un-earned rewards, and would launch investigations.
Think of CCP as acting in-game, rather than out.
Would the Minmatar let you do that? God, no. So, why whine?
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#2556 - 2012-06-23 16:15:21 UTC
Kazanir wrote:


It takes as long as CCP wants it to take. In this case I understand that your boys settled on automatic 1/week index updates referring to a 3-month market average. But it doesn't matter when CCP chooses to update the market price -- as soon as they do, the item is available for abuse.

Furthermore, the market index STAYS THAT WAY just as long as the manipulator in question WANTS it to stay that way, because the item in question has no normal market volume to correct said index. This is the core of what makes this possible.




Want a backhoe to keep digging that hole?
Youre effectively telling then that the timeframe is as long as CCP wants it to be...

Youre giving them the rope, hell youre MAKING the rope theyre measuring to hang you with you do realize that right?

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Blawrf McTaggart
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2557 - 2012-06-23 16:16:34 UTC
sort of like finding out your sandbox has razor blades hidden in the sand
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#2558 - 2012-06-23 16:17:07 UTC
Paint wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Maggie Maggie wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Comparing removing the manipulated assets of a small number of people to a complete redesign of the game may just win the prize.


Hear me out. While I am a goon and of course I do feel that a member of my tribe is under attack, I'm speaking as a player.

EVE has always been an open sandbox where players are allowed and encouraged to do things that materially affect the game. That is the one thing that sets EVE apart from every other MMO. There are other spaceship games. There are other games with a functioning market. There are other games where clever players do better than dumb people.

EVE has always been an open sandbox. If a player is afraid to experiment and push the game in new directions for fear that, should they win too big, they will lose everything, then that is not an open sandbox.

EVE has always been an open sandbox. If that is no longer the case, that constitues a complete redesign. Please don't take that first step. I like the game how it is.


When do we get to the part where we stop pretending that a gap in the timing of value calculation (programming) wasn't what was being taken advantage of here? This wasn't just market manipulation it was taking advantage of a flaw in the code.


So when are you going to roll back all the wealth from t2 bpo then?


DAMMIT I hate agreeing with Goons...

But at the same time you do realize you just dismantled your own argument right?
They HAVE to do something THIS time cause they DIDNT then and they dont want a repeat of the last fiasco.

But then you guys are more hated than BoB was so its all good when you get the hammer dropped on you

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Luis Graca
#2559 - 2012-06-23 16:17:19 UTC
So many people talking about the sandbox


Quick question whats a sandbox and it's limits?

For me i always thing it was a game were everyone plays together and doesn't have limits but now i'm kinda lost
Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#2560 - 2012-06-23 16:17:21 UTC
Haquer wrote:
Tallon Sylph wrote:
Is Eve still a sandbox? I'm pretty confused right now.


It is until you hit an arbitrary limit in which it's "abuse" and then get your assets seized.


It's not arbitrary, it only appears that way because you are an end user, not a developer or IP owner. Arbitrary would imply that it serves no exact purpose, when clearly it does.

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.