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Goons 4x4ing through the Sandbox - Market Manipulation on a Grand Scale

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Richter Enderas
Kaesong Kosmonauts
#2521 - 2012-06-23 15:56:12 UTC
I've never seen goons act like such giant publords before.
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#2522 - 2012-06-23 15:56:18 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
You'll have to ask the people who deploy things that. My job is to clean up afterwards.


you really drew the short straw, didn't you?



I think of him kinda like Mister Wolf.

We got a deployment, ready to launch, minus some testing.
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#2523 - 2012-06-23 15:56:25 UTC
Ryunosuke Kusanagi wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Kazanir wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


2. Maybe, just maybe, you guys at CCP will start listening to your player base before rolling out changes.


maybe, just maybe listening to the rest of the playerbase OVER the goons
not the other war round


We tried to warn CCP repeatedly about the design flaw of using market averages for single items well before Inferno was released. No one listened.


I can only speak for myself but I did not ever receive any detail whatsoever regarding this until after it had been taken advantage of. From anyone.

That being said we were aware that there was problems with the design and a fix had already been written for it.



Wait, if you knew of the problem and had a fix for it already, why did you NOT hotfix it?


This takes time to take effect. Hotfixing would have had 0 impact.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#2524 - 2012-06-23 15:57:25 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:

What we do with individuals is never a public matter. It never was and it never will be. The public communication will focus on what's been done to the group and the overall impact. I won't deny that nobody should have been speaking to the press and that that has been managed poorly.



Um, Sreegs, that's not quite accurate. I hate to sound like I'm defending these idiots, but CCP has, in the past, made some very public examples on occasion.


Ok then I'll just speak for myself and say the same thing. :)

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#2525 - 2012-06-23 15:58:57 UTC
Richter Enderas wrote:
I've never seen goons act like such giant publords before.


Sadly, that term makes them sound cooler than they actually are. Lord of the Pubs has a nice ring to it, and is not fit for whiners.


'veldlords' maybe?
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#2526 - 2012-06-23 15:59:40 UTC
Tyrion Struan wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:

How long does it take for that price to change and how long does it stay that way?

The next price update, and it will stay that way basically forever because there are no legitimate transactions to drown out the spoofed ones.

The problem is that with items with no volume, you cannot eliminate outliers automatically because the real prices are the outliers, not the spoofed ones.

edit: or it will drop out when the spoofed transactions leave the 90 day window. However you can trivially do some more to keep the price at normal.


That was the only reason timing was mentioned. The amount of time it takes to calculate means that the manipulated prices stick around a lot longer. I'm not going to pretend to be a financial wizard or anything but in looking at the issue that is something we have to consider.


I think, at this time, you should stop doing anything. You are being rash and unthoughtful. What has really happened? A very small group of guys, already filthy rich, and with a better understanding of game mechanics than the dev team, sat down and found a possible flaw in game mechanics. They used this. Precisely the way all CCP commercial say that we should use game mechanics to their full extent. You give us the game, we run with it. Precisely the way Soundwave has been harping about how he loves seeing what we can do with the game that you guys never thought of. If you don't like the way we use the mechanics, fix it. That is fine. But it stops there. What's been done, that didn't violate the EULA, stays. This, after all, is what eve is about.

Right now Sreegs you are dealing with a threadnought because you couldn't step back and let the game go on. So they made an extra few bill, who cares? Good on them for being better at eve than CCP. Instead of rolling with it, make a PR stunt out of it, congratulating the players that beat you at your own game, you are now being the heavy handed CCP that couldn't let the sandbox be the sandbox you've promised. You are walking a thin rhetorical line (let's be honest, there is no content in your argument, only rhetoric) , trying to defend why using game mechanics you knowingly implemented in a way you didn't foresee and intend is suddenly an abuse. And an abuse apparently enough to warrant you stepping in and taking stuff away. Sometimes Sreegs its better to step back and let things roll on. Had you really nothing you'd rather spend midsummers doing than dealing with the fallout of a bad call?


This thread was 115 pages before we did anything. What we did do wasn't communicated to you on purpose. Thanks for the advice though buddy.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#2527 - 2012-06-23 16:00:39 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Richter Enderas wrote:
I've never seen goons act like such giant publords before.


Sadly, that term makes them sound cooler than they actually are. Lord of the Pubs has a nice ring to it, and is not fit for whiners.


'veldlords' maybe?


There can only be one Veldlord, and his name is Chribba.
Tallon Sylph
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2528 - 2012-06-23 16:01:26 UTC
MY CE-Oh...
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#2529 - 2012-06-23 16:02:13 UTC
Kazanir wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
What we do with individuals is never a public matter. It never was and it never will be. The public communication will focus on what's been done to the group and the overall impact. I won't deny that nobody should have been speaking to the press and that that has been managed poorly.


This is a policy flaw.

First of all, one of the people speaking to the press was CCP Manifest. His official job title is PR and he's been at CCP for like...5 years. If he is talking to the press when he shouldn't, what kind of a PR guy is he? Damn.

Second, I appreciate that security teams always want to keep the results of investigations between them and the individuals. That's reasonable. But when you bungle the communication with the individuals in question (as CCP did this time) then it is going to have PR consequences when the players involved are like, "Hey, no one at CCP is talking to us and they even appear to have taken a bunch of assets that weren't connected to this! What the ****!"

If you want to avoid these types of PR issues then you absolutely need to get in front of the issue in a clear way. A single e-mail to the Faction Five stating your intentions could have avoided most of this shitstorm.


No matter what someone's title is if they don't have the details of investigations that haven't concluded yet they shouldn't be giving them to external parties. That was my point.

Communication with the people impacted certainly could have been handled better. That is my fault.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#2530 - 2012-06-23 16:03:15 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:

Ok then I'll just speak for myself and say the same thing. :)



Works for me. Good ethics there.


Though I'll grant that there *is* a significant portion of the server population that would like to see them chopped into itty-bitty pieces and then buried alive.
Blawrf McTaggart
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2531 - 2012-06-23 16:04:13 UTC
Richter Enderas wrote:
I've never seen goons act like such giant publords before.


it's a shame i can't negrep you here as well
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#2532 - 2012-06-23 16:04:52 UTC
Kazanir wrote:
Holander Switzerland wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:


When you say it it's hearsay. Aryth can post whatever he likes on the forums that doesn't make it true. Words on a forum are not evidence of conduct. It's really quite simple.


Alright, fair enough. I'm going to assume what you're saying is hearsay though too because its clear you had no idea what you're talking about.


Sreegs just misunderstands the mechanic and persists in thinking it is a timing issue when in reality it is a design flaw arising from a market volume issue. Oh well.


I already addressed that. Please do not twist my statements. I'm not part of your propaganda campaign and won't allow it to interfere with our official communications to our customers.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Tyrion Struan
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2533 - 2012-06-23 16:05:04 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
[quote=Tyrion Struan][quote=CCP Sreegs][quote=Weaselior][quote=CCP Sreegs]


This thread was 115 pages before we did anything. What we did do wasn't communicated to you on purpose. Thanks for the advice though buddy.


You know, not communicating with the player base seem to have been an issue before. Indeed, a lot of what I've been seeming to hear from CCP is that more communication was needed, not less. I don't know how it looks from your end, but from where I am sitting less communication - and your basic message to everyone here (to sod off because this is between you and the individuals) - seem to be about as bad a manner in which to handle this as it possibly could be. That it was 115 pages before you decided to step in may have been a very good sign indeed that some more communication would have been a splendid idea. Would have given a lot of people, me included, far less to shitpost about.
Andrea Roche
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2534 - 2012-06-23 16:05:44 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Kazanir wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
What we do with individuals is never a public matter. It never was and it never will be. The public communication will focus on what's been done to the group and the overall impact. I won't deny that nobody should have been speaking to the press and that that has been managed poorly.


This is a policy flaw.

First of all, one of the people speaking to the press was CCP Manifest. His official job title is PR and he's been at CCP for like...5 years. If he is talking to the press when he shouldn't, what kind of a PR guy is he? Damn.

Second, I appreciate that security teams always want to keep the results of investigations between them and the individuals. That's reasonable. But when you bungle the communication with the individuals in question (as CCP did this time) then it is going to have PR consequences when the players involved are like, "Hey, no one at CCP is talking to us and they even appear to have taken a bunch of assets that weren't connected to this! What the ****!"

If you want to avoid these types of PR issues then you absolutely need to get in front of the issue in a clear way. A single e-mail to the Faction Five stating your intentions could have avoided most of this shitstorm.


No matter what someone's title is if they don't have the details of investigations that haven't concluded yet they shouldn't be giving them to external parties. That was my point.

Communication with the people impacted certainly could have been handled better. That is my fault.


well if the investigation is still on going, there is not much you can say really, so any communication you give then can be drastically turn on its head since investigation has not concluded!
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#2535 - 2012-06-23 16:06:52 UTC
Tyrion Struan wrote:

You know, not communicating with the player base seem to have been an issue before. Indeed, a lot of what I've been seeming to hear from CCP is that more communication was needed, not less. I don't know how it looks from your end, but from where I am sitting less communication - and your basic message to everyone here (to sod off because this is between you and the individuals) - seem to be about as bad a manner in which to handle this as it possibly could be. That it was 115 pages before you decided to step in may have been a very good sign indeed that some more communication would have been a splendid idea. Would have given a lot of people, me included, far less to shitpost about.



Ok, I agree with this, CCP does need better communication. I wouldn't be quite so condescending about it, but it is an ongoing issue that has been a problem since..... they launched beta.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#2536 - 2012-06-23 16:06:53 UTC
Enaris Kerle wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
We haven't punished anyone to date. We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that.

Nobody is questioning whether you're in your right to do whatever you want with accounts, it's whether you're going to set a precedent for retroactively punishing people for doing things that were well within the design parameters of the game.


Isn't he clear enough?

As of now CCP has NOT punished them.

The ISK confiscation is seen as "abuse fix", not as punishment. The punishment is the banning of accounts, which has not been done.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#2537 - 2012-06-23 16:06:56 UTC
Andrea Roche wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Kazanir wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
What we do with individuals is never a public matter. It never was and it never will be. The public communication will focus on what's been done to the group and the overall impact. I won't deny that nobody should have been speaking to the press and that that has been managed poorly.


This is a policy flaw.

First of all, one of the people speaking to the press was CCP Manifest. His official job title is PR and he's been at CCP for like...5 years. If he is talking to the press when he shouldn't, what kind of a PR guy is he? Damn.

Second, I appreciate that security teams always want to keep the results of investigations between them and the individuals. That's reasonable. But when you bungle the communication with the individuals in question (as CCP did this time) then it is going to have PR consequences when the players involved are like, "Hey, no one at CCP is talking to us and they even appear to have taken a bunch of assets that weren't connected to this! What the ****!"

If you want to avoid these types of PR issues then you absolutely need to get in front of the issue in a clear way. A single e-mail to the Faction Five stating your intentions could have avoided most of this shitstorm.


No matter what someone's title is if they don't have the details of investigations that haven't concluded yet they shouldn't be giving them to external parties. That was my point.

Communication with the people impacted certainly could have been handled better. That is my fault.


well if the investigation is still on going, there is not much you can say really, so any communication you give then can be drastically turn on its head since investigation has not concluded!


ugh you've found the fatal flaw in my statement :(

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Linna Excel
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2538 - 2012-06-23 16:07:09 UTC
In retrospect, it probably should have been a flat rate per ship.

Example
T1 frigate = 5 lp
Faction frigate = 7 lp
T2 frigate = 10 lp

etc.

I can has blogging skills!
Maggie Maggie
Perkone
Caldari State
#2539 - 2012-06-23 16:07:45 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Please do not twist my statements. I'm not part of your propaganda campaign and won't allow it to interfere with our official communications to our customers.


Propaganda campaign makes it sound like we're coordinating our posts in some jabber channel. We're not.

Are we? Someone invite me to the channel, if we are.
Holander Switzerland
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2540 - 2012-06-23 16:08:12 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:


I already addressed that. Please do not twist my statements. I'm not part of your propaganda campaign and won't allow it to interfere with our official communications to our customers.


Alright, I will not "twist" your words any longer, I will just state that they are nothing but words on a forum.