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Goons 4x4ing through the Sandbox - Market Manipulation on a Grand Scale

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Ariel Marquette
Doomheim
#2501 - 2012-06-23 15:49:35 UTC
I am somewhat confused by some of the Goons' commentary here. They are repeatedly claiming that:

1) The game design / mechanics were used as intended.
2) It's not their fault if they thought about how it could be used this way and CCP didn't.

If point 2 is true, then how could point 1 possibly be true? CCP couldn't have intended for the design to be used in this way if they hadn't thought about it being used in this way.

Like it or not, CCP's designated employees are the arbiters of how their property may be used. They are well within their rights to do whatever they please to whomever they please within their game world, whether that seems completely arbitrary or not.

I applaud CCP's efforts to put some real thought into dealing with this situation. As a non-Goon, my solution would have simply been to start throwing Goons out of the game, given that they are so intent on ruining it for as many other people as possible. CCP's restraint is admirable.
Ryunosuke Kusanagi
#2502 - 2012-06-23 15:49:52 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Kazanir wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


2. Maybe, just maybe, you guys at CCP will start listening to your player base before rolling out changes.


maybe, just maybe listening to the rest of the playerbase OVER the goons
not the other war round


We tried to warn CCP repeatedly about the design flaw of using market averages for single items well before Inferno was released. No one listened.


I can only speak for myself but I did not ever receive any detail whatsoever regarding this until after it had been taken advantage of. From anyone.

That being said we were aware that there was problems with the design and a fix had already been written for it.



Wait, if you knew of the problem and had a fix for it already, why did you NOT hotfix it?
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2503 - 2012-06-23 15:49:53 UTC
Using the phrase "Goon tears" makes you pretty cool

Showing them what for

The fact that you're so eager to post it every page, well,
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#2504 - 2012-06-23 15:50:13 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Ravcharas wrote:
That does not mean that whatever they decide to do is right, however.



Rav, this is EvE Online. Right and wrong are something that happens to other games, as Mittens himself once said.


Eve is not meant to be fair

am I doin it right?

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Istyn
Freight Club
#2505 - 2012-06-23 15:50:36 UTC
Ryunosuke Kusanagi wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Kazanir wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


2. Maybe, just maybe, you guys at CCP will start listening to your player base before rolling out changes.


maybe, just maybe listening to the rest of the playerbase OVER the goons
not the other war round


We tried to warn CCP repeatedly about the design flaw of using market averages for single items well before Inferno was released. No one listened.


I can only speak for myself but I did not ever receive any detail whatsoever regarding this until after it had been taken advantage of. From anyone.

That being said we were aware that there was problems with the design and a fix had already been written for it.



Wait, if you knew of the problem and had a fix for it already, why did you NOT hotfix it?


Because game development is actually metrics development.
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#2506 - 2012-06-23 15:51:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Cygnet Lythanea
CCP Sreegs wrote:

What we do with individuals is never a public matter. It never was and it never will be. The public communication will focus on what's been done to the group and the overall impact. I won't deny that nobody should have been speaking to the press and that that has been managed poorly.



Um, Sreegs, that's not quite accurate. I hate to sound like I'm defending these idiots, but CCP has, in the past, made some very public examples on occasion.
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#2507 - 2012-06-23 15:51:45 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:



It is however funny to see when CCP rules against Goons they rage as hard as everyone else does


Only in this case it's Goons raging against CCP, whereas normally everyone rages at Goons.

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#2508 - 2012-06-23 15:51:47 UTC
Holander Switzerland wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:

Nobody has been penalized


CCP Sreegs wrote:

That is between us and Aryth. We've also stated that it was a temporary measure thus far. The hyperbole in this thread is pretty damn hilarious though. Comparing removing the manipulated assets of a small number of people to a complete redesign of the game may just win the prize.




Aryth wrote:
Popping in. Will be out of pocket rest of day. I was hoping to have seen a Dev Blog by now but no dice.

Status for me right now:
1.2T in hard assets taken at least. Possibly more. I would need to go and put a hard value on all the BPC's seized. This was mixed in with my own stuff, I didn't keep separate stacks.
1.7B in LP zeroed out. Yes, that is a B.

So even if you value LP at 1k isk each, when it's 2k if you cashed it in properly, I am out about 3T since last night. No word yet from CCP. Going to wait to see what the statement says, this is pretty surprising to me as we feel this is all legitimate gameplay and they seem to be reflecting that in their press releases. So I don't want to speculate too much right now on their thought process. It's a black box right now.



Hows that for hearsay.


When you say it it's hearsay. Aryth can post whatever he likes on the forums that doesn't make it true. Words on a forum are not evidence of conduct. It's really quite simple.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#2509 - 2012-06-23 15:52:43 UTC
Istyn wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Kazanir wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


2. Maybe, just maybe, you guys at CCP will start listening to your player base before rolling out changes.


maybe, just maybe listening to the rest of the playerbase OVER the goons
not the other war round


We tried to warn CCP repeatedly about the design flaw of using market averages for single items well before Inferno was released. No one listened.


I can only speak for myself but I did not ever receive any detail whatsoever regarding this until after it had been taken advantage of. From anyone.

That being said we were aware that there was problems with the design and a fix had already been written for it.


So why do you deploy stuff before fixing it then blame the players and/or break the game?


You'll have to ask the people who deploy things that. My job is to clean up afterwards.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Haquer
Vorkuta Inc
#2510 - 2012-06-23 15:52:48 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Holander Switzerland wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:

Nobody has been penalized


CCP Sreegs wrote:

That is between us and Aryth. We've also stated that it was a temporary measure thus far. The hyperbole in this thread is pretty damn hilarious though. Comparing removing the manipulated assets of a small number of people to a complete redesign of the game may just win the prize.




Aryth wrote:
Popping in. Will be out of pocket rest of day. I was hoping to have seen a Dev Blog by now but no dice.

Status for me right now:
1.2T in hard assets taken at least. Possibly more. I would need to go and put a hard value on all the BPC's seized. This was mixed in with my own stuff, I didn't keep separate stacks.
1.7B in LP zeroed out. Yes, that is a B.

So even if you value LP at 1k isk each, when it's 2k if you cashed it in properly, I am out about 3T since last night. No word yet from CCP. Going to wait to see what the statement says, this is pretty surprising to me as we feel this is all legitimate gameplay and they seem to be reflecting that in their press releases. So I don't want to speculate too much right now on their thought process. It's a black box right now.



Hows that for hearsay.


When you say it it's hearsay. Aryth can post whatever he likes on the forums that doesn't make it true. Words on a forum are not evidence of conduct. It's really quite simple.


lmbo
Tyrion Struan
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2511 - 2012-06-23 15:53:16 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:

How long does it take for that price to change and how long does it stay that way?

The next price update, and it will stay that way basically forever because there are no legitimate transactions to drown out the spoofed ones.

The problem is that with items with no volume, you cannot eliminate outliers automatically because the real prices are the outliers, not the spoofed ones.

edit: or it will drop out when the spoofed transactions leave the 90 day window. However you can trivially do some more to keep the price at normal.


That was the only reason timing was mentioned. The amount of time it takes to calculate means that the manipulated prices stick around a lot longer. I'm not going to pretend to be a financial wizard or anything but in looking at the issue that is something we have to consider.


I think, at this time, you should stop doing anything. You are being rash and unthoughtful. What has really happened? A very small group of guys, already filthy rich, and with a better understanding of game mechanics than the dev team, sat down and found a possible flaw in game mechanics. They used this. Precisely the way all CCP commercial say that we should use game mechanics to their full extent. You give us the game, we run with it. Precisely the way Soundwave has been harping about how he loves seeing what we can do with the game that you guys never thought of. If you don't like the way we use the mechanics, fix it. That is fine. But it stops there. What's been done, that didn't violate the EULA, stays. This, after all, is what eve is about.

Right now Sreegs you are dealing with a threadnought because you couldn't step back and let the game go on. So they made an extra few bill, who cares? Good on them for being better at eve than CCP. Instead of rolling with it, make a PR stunt out of it, congratulating the players that beat you at your own game, you are now being the heavy handed CCP that couldn't let the sandbox be the sandbox you've promised. You are walking a thin rhetorical line (let's be honest, there is no content in your argument, only rhetoric) , trying to defend why using game mechanics you knowingly implemented in a way you didn't foresee and intend is suddenly an abuse. And an abuse apparently enough to warrant you stepping in and taking stuff away. Sometimes Sreegs its better to step back and let things roll on. Had you really nothing you'd rather spend midsummers doing than dealing with the fallout of a bad call?
Istyn
Freight Club
#2512 - 2012-06-23 15:53:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Istyn
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Istyn wrote:
So why do you deploy stuff before fixing it then blame the players and/or break the game?


You'll have to ask the people who deploy things that. My job is to clean up afterwards.



Well at least you won't have to worry about finding a new one for the foreseeable future. Smile
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#2513 - 2012-06-23 15:53:35 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
There are people coding what their design leader tells them to.

There's this guy on top checking everything goes accordingly to stated plan

There's a test server

There are bug hunters

There is players feedback (hohoho)

Then you decide to implement "stuff"

Players play the content you give them under the form you've decided to release despite all steps above.

Then it's players fault because they play the game and should be penalised because steps above failed?

What the heck? Shocked


Nobody has been penalized


so theyre LYING about the 5 trillion. Ah do they get banned now for rumor mongering as per the OTHER part of that new rule?


If they did it wouldn't be any of your business.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Kazanir
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2514 - 2012-06-23 15:53:58 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
What we do with individuals is never a public matter. It never was and it never will be. The public communication will focus on what's been done to the group and the overall impact. I won't deny that nobody should have been speaking to the press and that that has been managed poorly.


This is a policy flaw.

First of all, one of the people speaking to the press was CCP Manifest. His official job title is PR and he's been at CCP for like...5 years. If he is talking to the press when he shouldn't, what kind of a PR guy is he? Damn.

Second, I appreciate that security teams always want to keep the results of investigations between them and the individuals. That's reasonable. But when you bungle the communication with the individuals in question (as CCP did this time) then it is going to have PR consequences when the players involved are like, "Hey, no one at CCP is talking to us and they even appear to have taken a bunch of assets that weren't connected to this! What the ****!"

If you want to avoid these types of PR issues then you absolutely need to get in front of the issue in a clear way. A single e-mail to the Faction Five stating your intentions could have avoided most of this shitstorm.
Dave stark
#2515 - 2012-06-23 15:54:16 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
You'll have to ask the people who deploy things that. My job is to clean up afterwards.


you really drew the short straw, didn't you?
Holander Switzerland
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2516 - 2012-06-23 15:55:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Holander Switzerland
CCP Sreegs wrote:


When you say it it's hearsay. Aryth can post whatever he likes on the forums that doesn't make it true. Words on a forum are not evidence of conduct. It's really quite simple.


Alright, fair enough. I'm going to assume what you're saying is hearsay though too because its clear you have no idea what you're talking about.
Maggie Maggie
Perkone
Caldari State
#2517 - 2012-06-23 15:55:47 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Hows that for hearsay.


When you say it it's hearsay. Aryth can post whatever he likes on the forums that doesn't make it true. Words on a forum are not evidence of conduct. It's really quite simple.


Is this a court of law now?
Andrea Roche
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2518 - 2012-06-23 15:55:58 UTC
Tomytronic wrote:
Andrea Roche wrote:
Tomytronic wrote:
Andrea Roche wrote:
i love this goon raging thread. Its most helerious for an alliance that is suppose to "collect much tears". My questions is when they say this, do they mean someone elses or theirs, cos this thread has so much of it that its turning into an ocean.

Are you going to apologise?


apologise for what? Its you goons thats crying not us.

Apologise for your use of highly inappropriate and offensive language when referring to an internet spaceship game.


i did not use any language that intended the meaning you are trying to give. I specifically said "the market". You can twist this which ever way you want, so could I give different meanings to anything you say and try and twist it around.
Istyn
Freight Club
#2519 - 2012-06-23 15:56:02 UTC
Holander Switzerland wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:


When you say it it's hearsay. Aryth can post whatever he likes on the forums that doesn't make it true. Words on a forum are not evidence of conduct. It's really quite simple.


Alright, fair enough. I'm going to assume what you're saying is hearsay though too because its clear you had no idea what you're talking about.


This whole thread is hearsay.

Especially this post.
Kazanir
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2520 - 2012-06-23 15:56:06 UTC
Holander Switzerland wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:


When you say it it's hearsay. Aryth can post whatever he likes on the forums that doesn't make it true. Words on a forum are not evidence of conduct. It's really quite simple.


Alright, fair enough. I'm going to assume what you're saying is hearsay though too because its clear you had no idea what you're talking about.


Sreegs just misunderstands the mechanic and persists in thinking it is a timing issue when in reality it is a design flaw arising from a market volume issue. Oh well.