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Goons 4x4ing through the Sandbox - Market Manipulation on a Grand Scale

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Nephilim Xeno
Order of Garrulor
#2401 - 2012-06-23 15:12:10 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Benedic wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Benedic wrote:
I find it quite disturbing that you can be punished by finding clever ways to profit from the rules of Eve. This was no exploit, it was using the code and systems the way they were designed. Who knows what the **** you can get punished for next considering if it benefits you in any way they may randomly yank back all your profits.


I find it disturbing that you think you could exploit a system to print money and crash markets and we'd just be like "Oh haha those cards".

We haven't punished anyone to date. We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that.


Like the other posters in goonfleet I take exception to this idea that it's 'exploiting' a system when CCP designed these systems to do -exactly- what was done. When you build a system to allow you to lower LP costs and so forth it's not really an exploitation to use those systems to profit.

An exploitation is when you use a system in a way that it was not intended to be used or find a way to outright break the system and use it wrongly. None of that was done, all the systems were used in the way they were intended and combined in a way that generated profit.

I will say that I'll await the results of your investigation eagerly. Maybe the people responsible have lied to us and they really 'exploited' a system but so far all they've done as best I can see is use the systems you built in ways you didn't see when designing them and that means the fault lies with CCP, not the players. THAT is the nature of a sandbox. If you can't stand by your own bad design but instead seek to punish the players for finding the flaws in your designs then you deserve to lose the playerbase. Stand by your own shoddy work, not fling blame at the players.


Not once has anyone blamed any players. We're well aware of what a sandbox is. We made it.

If you print isk and I take away what you printed then you're in the same state you were prior to printing. That is not punishment it is fixing the problem.


just hope you take away all the isk that was earned duo to this extremly low costs and high LP payouts cause by the T5 upgraded that goons created for the minnie milita.

tbh i even think all the isk earned by this should be distributed among amarr milita members based on the amount of (worthless) LP that they currently have
Istyn
Freight Club
#2402 - 2012-06-23 15:12:29 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Benedic wrote:
I find it quite disturbing that you can be punished by finding clever ways to profit from the rules of Eve. This was no exploit, it was using the code and systems the way they were designed. Who knows what the **** you can get punished for next considering if it benefits you in any way they may randomly yank back all your profits.


I find it disturbing that you think you could exploit a system to print money and crash markets and we'd just be like "Oh haha those cards".


Dude, bro...

have you read market discussion?
Kazanir
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2403 - 2012-06-23 15:12:51 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Maggie Maggie wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Comparing removing the manipulated assets of a small number of people to a complete redesign of the game may just win the prize.


Hear me out. While I am a goon and of course I do feel that a member of my tribe is under attack, I'm speaking as a player.

EVE has always been an open sandbox where players are allowed and encouraged to do things that materially affect the game. That is the one thing that sets EVE apart from every other MMO. There are other spaceship games. There are other games with a functioning market. There are other games where clever players do better than dumb people.

EVE has always been an open sandbox. If a player is afraid to experiment and push the game in new directions for fear that, should they win too big, they will lose everything, then that is not an open sandbox.

EVE has always been an open sandbox. If that is no longer the case, that constitues a complete redesign. Please don't take that first step. I like the game how it is.


When do we get to the part where we stop pretending that a gap in the timing of value calculation (programming) wasn't what was being taken advantage of here? This wasn't just market manipulation it was taking advantage of a flaw in the code.


That is absolutely not true, and to people who DO understand the mechanic it kind of calls into question whether you understand what you are talking about. The mechanic involved has nothing to do with timing or a "flaw" in the code. The system worked precisely as it was designed to. I'll make a larger post explaining it, but I wanted to put this out there first.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2404 - 2012-06-23 15:13:49 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:

When do we get to the part where we stop pretending that a gap in the timing of value calculation (programming) wasn't what was being taken advantage of here? This wasn't just market manipulation it was taking advantage of a flaw in the code.

The problem is there's no way where the timing of value calculation isn't exploitable. Rapid adjustment leads to being manipulable (either intentionally or not: it could get spoofed by someone margin scamming, or relisting, or the like) while slow adjustment leads to cases where the market has moved but the value has not. There's a fundamental problem with a mechanism of value calculation that isn't based on fundamentals (build cost, cost to acquire from an LP store, or the like).

I know that fixing the design isn't your baliwick but as long as the fundamentals of the system remain the same there will always be opportunities to generate LP at a profit (essentially pay less than 2000 isk per lp), without spoofing the game's price.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Dancing Tree
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2405 - 2012-06-23 15:14:20 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
This wasn't just market manipulation it was taking advantage of a flaw in the code.


It was a flaw in the design, not the code. Seeing that flaw when others do not is arbitrage. Leveraging arbitrage is what happened here, entirely within the bounds of the sandbox market.

If leveraging arbitrage in the market becomes forbidden, what becomes of the game?
Phoenixx
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2406 - 2012-06-23 15:14:46 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Phoenixx wrote:
2) You come on the forums and brag about how you outwitted CCP and make 300T ISK.


this figure changes with every post!


Whatever the number, it was a lot, that's the important part. The exact amount isn't really relevant. And yes, I'm aware that it ISK was spent for the items and that the items themselves are the valued things exploited.
Tez Saurus
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2407 - 2012-06-23 15:14:48 UTC
TL;DR of this thread is CCP's jimmies are rustled because some nerds understand their game better than they do?
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2408 - 2012-06-23 15:15:09 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:

I'll try to give some guidance in the blog once the investigation's done but what you're asking for can be a bit difficult.

Ok, thanks.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Andrea Roche
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2409 - 2012-06-23 15:15:21 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Prop Wash wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:


and you're not qualified to discuss the matter because anything you type is hearsay


Ok cool so why don't you just close this thread then


ugh you've called my bluff I can't close the thread :(



ROLF. i love this post. CCP Sreegs is actually trolling you. +10 !!
Dreiden Kisada
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2410 - 2012-06-23 15:16:13 UTC
If by timing you mean taking advantage of a price differential after spent time and money making the price differential then I suppose it has to do with timing. I mean, it wouldn't have worked very well if they'd bought a bunch of stuff, then manipulated the market. Kinda hatching your eggs before their laid there.
Tomytronic
Perkone
Caldari State
#2411 - 2012-06-23 15:16:15 UTC
Come back EO, all is forgiven...
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#2412 - 2012-06-23 15:17:07 UTC
Ris Dnalor wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Ituhata Saken wrote:
Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,


At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. Don’t be That Guy.



By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.



Tread lightly Sreegs.

You ****** up, not the players.

The goons put LOTS of time and effort into making that isk. Do not treat them like RMTers.

If you take it back, it'll be the worst mistake CCP ever makes.

This wasn't a market exploit. It was sloppy game mechanic design. And you know it. And you're embarrassed. If you try to save your pride by taking back the isk people have made from this, the party will be over. The sandbox will finally be dead, and you may as well focus on CQ Space Barbies.


Theyve gotta act differently this time, after not doing **** with T20 when that happened

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#2413 - 2012-06-23 15:17:25 UTC
Kazanir wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Maggie Maggie wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Comparing removing the manipulated assets of a small number of people to a complete redesign of the game may just win the prize.


Hear me out. While I am a goon and of course I do feel that a member of my tribe is under attack, I'm speaking as a player.

EVE has always been an open sandbox where players are allowed and encouraged to do things that materially affect the game. That is the one thing that sets EVE apart from every other MMO. There are other spaceship games. There are other games with a functioning market. There are other games where clever players do better than dumb people.

EVE has always been an open sandbox. If a player is afraid to experiment and push the game in new directions for fear that, should they win too big, they will lose everything, then that is not an open sandbox.

EVE has always been an open sandbox. If that is no longer the case, that constitues a complete redesign. Please don't take that first step. I like the game how it is.


When do we get to the part where we stop pretending that a gap in the timing of value calculation (programming) wasn't what was being taken advantage of here? This wasn't just market manipulation it was taking advantage of a flaw in the code.


That is absolutely not true, and to people who DO understand the mechanic it kind of calls into question whether you understand what you are talking about. The mechanic involved has nothing to do with timing or a "flaw" in the code. The system worked precisely as it was designed to. I'll make a larger post explaining it, but I wanted to put this out there first.


It is absolutely true. It's even mentioned in the OP. That's not the entirety of the exploit of course but it does increase the damage window.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Phoenixx
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2414 - 2012-06-23 15:17:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Phoenixx
Enaris Kerle wrote:
Phoenixx wrote:
Anyway, it's entertaining, and never affected me. But' it is very obvious that CCP needs to penalize those who exploited a game design flaw. You can't exploit the flaw and then brag about it - knowing very well that it would probably not fly - and then claim good faith after CCP fixes it.

counterpoint: insurance fraud


There's a difference between game design flaw manipulation to gain a fair profit of ISK and this manipulation to accumulate a far greater value. Someone earlier from Goonswarm said the value of the amount of items gained exceeded the value of the entirety of titans in the game.

That is a huge difference.
Sverige Pahis
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2415 - 2012-06-23 15:18:21 UTC
sreegs
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#2416 - 2012-06-23 15:19:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Cygnet Lythanea
CCP Sreegs wrote:
You can basically use any article written about this thus far for toilet paper as anything contained within the articles is fantasy invented by the bloggers writing the articles.


:)


CCP Sreegs wrote:

I find it disturbing that you think you could exploit a system to print money and crash markets and we'd just be like "Oh haha those cards".

We haven't punished anyone to date. We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that.



Sreegs, I'd send you a friend request, but that would be unprofessional, because I just read that last post entirely in the voice of Samuel L Jackson in Pulp Fiction.



Like I posted earlier: goons, some of your guys just **** in the sandbox while at the same time trying to make CCP look bad. There are gonna be consequences, one way or the other, and while the whole thing was very clever, the fact that none of you asked the key question "What will CCP do once they find this out?" and "If we rub their faces in that fact we did this will our punishment possibly be harsher?' makes me highly doubt you're actually smarter than the devs.
Istyn
Freight Club
#2417 - 2012-06-23 15:19:48 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Kazanir wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Maggie Maggie wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Comparing removing the manipulated assets of a small number of people to a complete redesign of the game may just win the prize.


Hear me out. While I am a goon and of course I do feel that a member of my tribe is under attack, I'm speaking as a player.

EVE has always been an open sandbox where players are allowed and encouraged to do things that materially affect the game. That is the one thing that sets EVE apart from every other MMO. There are other spaceship games. There are other games with a functioning market. There are other games where clever players do better than dumb people.

EVE has always been an open sandbox. If a player is afraid to experiment and push the game in new directions for fear that, should they win too big, they will lose everything, then that is not an open sandbox.

EVE has always been an open sandbox. If that is no longer the case, that constitues a complete redesign. Please don't take that first step. I like the game how it is.


When do we get to the part where we stop pretending that a gap in the timing of value calculation (programming) wasn't what was being taken advantage of here? This wasn't just market manipulation it was taking advantage of a flaw in the code.


That is absolutely not true, and to people who DO understand the mechanic it kind of calls into question whether you understand what you are talking about. The mechanic involved has nothing to do with timing or a "flaw" in the code. The system worked precisely as it was designed to. I'll make a larger post explaining it, but I wanted to put this out there first.


It is absolutely true. It's even mentioned in the OP. That's not the entirety of the exploit of course but it does increase the damage window.


So, when does all the isk earnt during the insurance fraud bonanza get taken away?
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#2418 - 2012-06-23 15:19:53 UTC
Dancing Tree wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
This wasn't just market manipulation it was taking advantage of a flaw in the code.


It was a flaw in the design, not the code. Seeing that flaw when others do not is arbitrage. Leveraging arbitrage is what happened here, entirely within the bounds of the sandbox market.

If leveraging arbitrage in the market becomes forbidden, what becomes of the game?


You weren't just leveraging arbitrage because the value you were manipulating was fairly abritrary. This would not be acceptable in any financial system at all. I know ya'll are having fun pretending this is just A OK but I'm telling you it's not.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Mechaet
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2419 - 2012-06-23 15:20:19 UTC
Phoenixx wrote:
Enaris Kerle wrote:
Phoenixx wrote:
Anyway, it's entertaining, and never affected me. But' it is very obvious that CCP needs to penalize those who exploited a game design flaw. You can't exploit the flaw and then brag about it - knowing very well that it would probably not fly - and then claim good faith after CCP fixes it.

counterpoint: insurance fraud


There's a difference between game design flaw manipulation to gain a fair profit of ISK and this manipulation to accumulate a far greater value. Someone earlier from Goonswarm said the value of the amount of items gained exceeded the value of the entirety of titans in the game.

That is a huge difference.

Why does scale matter? If it's within game mechanics, it's within game mechanics. Scale has no relevance on "legality".
Mechaet
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2420 - 2012-06-23 15:21:31 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Dancing Tree wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
This wasn't just market manipulation it was taking advantage of a flaw in the code.


It was a flaw in the design, not the code. Seeing that flaw when others do not is arbitrage. Leveraging arbitrage is what happened here, entirely within the bounds of the sandbox market.

If leveraging arbitrage in the market becomes forbidden, what becomes of the game?


You weren't just leveraging arbitrage because the value you were manipulating was fairly abritrary. This would not be acceptable in any financial system at all. I know ya'll are having fun pretending this is just A OK but I'm telling you it's not.

And thusly the heavens opened, and the first of the Four Horsemen of the Sandbox Apocalypse burst forth.