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Goons 4x4ing through the Sandbox - Market Manipulation on a Grand Scale

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M Expedience
Expedient Experiences
#2321 - 2012-06-23 14:15:33 UTC
Holander Switzerland wrote:
Can I get a list of things I can legitimately do in game so I don't get banned?


By asking, you have already violated the list.
Lexmana
#2322 - 2012-06-23 14:15:42 UTC
Benedic wrote:
I find it quite disturbing that you can be punished by finding clever ways to profit from the rules of Eve. This was no exploit, it was using the code and systems the way they were designed.

I am pretty sure they designed the mechanics with the intention to give a fair market value of items. The coding sucked though.
Blawrf McTaggart
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2323 - 2012-06-23 14:15:42 UTC
Why is Sreegs involved? This is not a security issue, no accounts were hacked, nothing was botted, nothing was exploited using "hacking" methods. It was down and dirty market manipulation caused by the lack of foresight on the side of one of EVE's devs - not Sreegs.

I don't see why CCP/Sreegs felt the need to prevent a crash of the factional warfare market, especially when a) the cabal specifically said that they weren't going to do that and b) SANDBOX
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#2324 - 2012-06-23 14:16:08 UTC
Benedic wrote:
I find it quite disturbing that you can be punished by finding clever ways to profit from the rules of Eve. This was no exploit, it was using the code and systems the way they were designed. Who knows what the **** you can get punished for next considering if it benefits you in any way they may randomly yank back all your profits.


I find it disturbing that you think you could exploit a system to print money and crash markets and we'd just be like "Oh haha those cards".

We haven't punished anyone to date. We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Lexmana
#2325 - 2012-06-23 14:17:24 UTC
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:
Why is Sreegs involved? This is not a security issue, no accounts were hacked, nothing was botted, nothing was exploited using "hacking" methods. It was down and dirty market manipulation caused by the lack of foresight on the side of one of EVE's devs - not Sreegs.

I don't see why CCP/Sreegs felt the need to prevent a crash of the factional warfare market, especially when a) the cabal specifically said that they weren't going to do that and b) SANDBOX

Abusing the game on a scale that can break it is not a security issue?
Blawrf McTaggart
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2326 - 2012-06-23 14:20:02 UTC
Lexmana wrote:
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:
Why is Sreegs involved? This is not a security issue, no accounts were hacked, nothing was botted, nothing was exploited using "hacking" methods. It was down and dirty market manipulation caused by the lack of foresight on the side of one of EVE's devs - not Sreegs.

I don't see why CCP/Sreegs felt the need to prevent a crash of the factional warfare market, especially when a) the cabal specifically said that they weren't going to do that and b) SANDBOX

Abusing the game on a scale that can break it is not a security issue?


game wasn't abused to the extent of breaking it, the dudes involved told CCP about the manipulation and stopped it. it was a programming issue.
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#2327 - 2012-06-23 14:21:41 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Sreegs
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:
Lexmana wrote:
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:
Why is Sreegs involved? This is not a security issue, no accounts were hacked, nothing was botted, nothing was exploited using "hacking" methods. It was down and dirty market manipulation caused by the lack of foresight on the side of one of EVE's devs - not Sreegs.

I don't see why CCP/Sreegs felt the need to prevent a crash of the factional warfare market, especially when a) the cabal specifically said that they weren't going to do that and b) SANDBOX

Abusing the game on a scale that can break it is not a security issue?


game wasn't abused to the extent of breaking it, the dudes involved told CCP about the manipulation and stopped it. it was a programming issue.


Abusing a programming issue is still abuse and you know this. The rest will be in the blog rather than invented at the keyboards of forum posters and bloggers.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2328 - 2012-06-23 14:22:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Vile rat wrote:
Next time somebody does something like this they would be stupid to let ccp know in any manner. That's my takeaway from this :)


That would be remarkably stupid.

why?

the ferrogel exploit went on for at least 1.5 years without CCP interference

seems like one can keep these things going for quite some time as long as one doesn't overdo it (as goons did in this case) and tbh the cost of a few accounts isn't much of a deterrent considering the potential rewards.

My interpretation is that the jewbal guys hoped they would get to keep part of the proceeds as long as they are open about what they did, don't try to launder any of the wealth they gained through this mechanic and make sure they are the first ones to blow the whistle (see ev0ke example).

But when the choice is between "make crazy profit for a few weeks, blow the whistle and get the proceeds subsequently removed" and "make steady profit for several months, launder the proceeds and get your account eventually banned" the choice isn't hard.

.
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2329 - 2012-06-23 14:23:33 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Enaris Kerle wrote:

Who's right then? You or Xhagen? Was it an exploit, or wasn't it?


Me.

Xhagen had no access to any information and is not involved in the investigative process. You can basically use any article written about this thus far for toilet paper as anything contained within the articles is fantasy invented by the bloggers writing the articles.


CCP Sreegs wrote:
Vile rat wrote:
Next time somebody does something like this they would be stupid to let ccp know in any manner. That's my takeaway from this :)


That would be remarkably stupid.



CCP Sreegs wrote:

I find it disturbing that you think you could exploit a system to print money and crash markets and we'd just be like "Oh haha those cards".

We haven't punished anyone to date. We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that.


Pure ownage. I'm so hot for you now Sreegs. ❤

Sugar Von MurdererTits : Jake Warbird gets my vote for most intriguing and attractive male character in Eve.
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#2330 - 2012-06-23 14:24:18 UTC
Vera Algaert wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Vile rat wrote:
Next time somebody does something like this they would be stupid to let ccp know in any manner. That's my takeaway from this :)


That would be remarkably stupid.

why?

the ferrogel exploit went on for at least 1.5 years without CCP interference

seems like one can keep these things going for quite some time as long as one doesn't overdo it (as goons did in this case) and tbh the cost of a few accounts isn't much of a deterrent considering the potential rewards.

My interpretation is that the jewbal guys hoped they would get to keep part of the proceeds as long as they are open about what they did, don't try to launder any of the wealth they gained through this mechanic and make sure they are the first ones to blow the whistle (see ev0ke example).

But when the choice is between "make crazy profit for a few weeks, blow the whistle and get the proceeds subsequently removed" and "make steady profit for several months, launder the proceeds and get your account eventually banned" the choice isn't hard.


In the scenario you paint the punishment would be significantly more severe. I can't speak to the ferrogel exploit as I didn't work here at the time. I can only speak to what I'm responsible for.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Dave stark
#2331 - 2012-06-23 14:24:46 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
I find it disturbing that you think you could exploit a system to print money and crash markets and we'd just be like "Oh haha those cards".

you mean, as disturbing as allowing an issue like this to be deployed on to the live servers?
Enaris Kerle
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2332 - 2012-06-23 14:26:17 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
We haven't punished anyone to date. We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that.

Nobody is questioning whether you're in your right to do whatever you want with accounts, it's whether you're going to set a precedent for retroactively punishing people for doing things that were well within the design parameters of the game.

Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#2333 - 2012-06-23 14:26:37 UTC
Benedic wrote:
I find it quite disturbing that you can be punished by finding clever ways to profit from the rules of Eve. This was no exploit, it was using the code and systems the way they were designed. Who knows what the **** you can get punished for next considering if it benefits you in any way they may randomly yank back all your profits.



i dunno... this was a new feature and usually when its being introduced there are aspects of it that ccp does not intend to be features... obviously this was one of them which is why they hot fixed it when they did...

pretty much what goons did was find someones wallet and inside of it was a winning lotto ticket... instead of returning it they cashed it in...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#2334 - 2012-06-23 14:28:30 UTC
Enaris Kerle wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
We haven't punished anyone to date. We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that.

Nobody is questioning whether you're in your right to do whatever you want with accounts, it's whether you're going to set a precedent for retroactively punishing people for doing things that were well within the design parameters of the game.


By that standard the ferrogel exploit was also within the parameters. I don't know why this seems to not be sinking in. All exploits were programmed.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Haquer
Vorkuta Inc
#2335 - 2012-06-23 14:29:09 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Benedic wrote:
I find it quite disturbing that you can be punished by finding clever ways to profit from the rules of Eve. This was no exploit, it was using the code and systems the way they were designed. Who knows what the **** you can get punished for next considering if it benefits you in any way they may randomly yank back all your profits.


I find it disturbing that you think you could exploit a system to print money and crash markets and we'd just be like "Oh haha those cards".

We haven't punished anyone to date. We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that.


You seem pretty mad that a group of players are smarter than you.

Weird.
Maggie Maggie
Perkone
Caldari State
#2336 - 2012-06-23 14:29:43 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
We haven't punished anyone to date.


Aryth had unrelated datacores pulled from his inventory, c/d?


CCP Sreegs wrote:
We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that.


Well of course you are within your rights, it's your game. SOE was entirely within their rights when they deployed NGE, too.
Guttripper
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2337 - 2012-06-23 14:30:14 UTC
On a side note, I am curious if CCP Sreegs or another could mention just how much ISK has been permanently removed from the game from all the abused tactics, their anti-botting warfare tactics, RMTing, and other dastardly affairs. While I am not stating that this episode made certain people guilty since I do not have all the facts (thread increased about a hundred pages since I last checked), if CCP decides to remove the five trillion ISK from some members of Goons, is that a drop in the ocean or is that a huge amount gone from the game?

Curious for curiousity sake - thanks.
Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies
#2338 - 2012-06-23 14:32:38 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Abusing a programming issue is still abuse and you know this.

So what does a programming issue mean? Bugs? Game mechanics having unexpected results?

Fear God and Thread Nought
Haquer
Vorkuta Inc
#2339 - 2012-06-23 14:34:05 UTC
Jackie Fisher wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Abusing a programming issue is still abuse and you know this.

So what does a programming issue mean? Bugs? Game mechanics having unexpected results?


Programming issue in this case was a formula that they published publically and then were told that it would be abused and ignored everyone.

Then once it was abused, they punished those who did it.

darius JOHNSON at his finest, ladies and gentlemen.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#2340 - 2012-06-23 14:35:35 UTC
Haquer wrote:
Jackie Fisher wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Abusing a programming issue is still abuse and you know this.

So what does a programming issue mean? Bugs? Game mechanics having unexpected results?


Programming issue in this case was a formula that they published publically and then were told that it would be abused and ignored everyone.

Then once it was abused, they punished those who did it.

darius JOHNSON at his finest, ladies and gentlemen.



i dunno but something tells me goons are upset...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.