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Goons 4x4ing through the Sandbox - Market Manipulation on a Grand Scale

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Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#2301 - 2012-06-23 13:39:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Cutter Isaacson
Richard Desturned wrote:
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
Andrea Roche wrote:
nerf to incursions............. exploiting the market!


what's the hypocrisy there?


Clearer?


that's not hypocrisy


I posted too early and have since modified my answer. I should also point out that I am not taking sides here.

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
Holander Switzerland
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2302 - 2012-06-23 13:40:11 UTC
Can I get a list of things I can legitimately do in game so I don't get banned?
Andrea Roche
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2303 - 2012-06-23 13:41:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Andrea Roche
Richard Desturned wrote:
Andrea Roche wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
Andrea Roche wrote:
i admire someones ability to see the market and make profit.
That been said, I do hate the hypocracy of goons calling high sec nerf to incursions while at the same time runing a permanent suicide on hulks and on top of that exploiting the market!


what's the hypocrisy there?


read further into the post and then you see the hypocracy


because this is very much like covertly duping ferrogel for months


its funny how you are trying to ignore the second paragraph of my original post....
Here it is so that you cant ignore it further ;)

I remember a few years back, the mitani in his speach talking about how Ev0ke in the past exploited the moons cos of some "feature" and how Ev0ke made big isk back then. He spoke with as much hatred as we have witnessed him speaking about the DRF at their height of power.
Funny how its ok for them to exploit the market because of some "feature" BUT its NOT ok when sombody else does it, like Ev0ke!!
Enaris Kerle
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2304 - 2012-06-23 13:45:09 UTC
Andrea Roche wrote:
I remember a few years back, the mitani in his speach talking about how Ev0ke in the past exploited the moons cos of some "feature" and how Ev0ke made big isk back then. He spoke with as much hatred as we have witnessed him speaking about the DRF at their height of power.
Funny how its ok for them to exploit the market because of some "feature" BUT its NOT ok when sombody else does it, like Ev0ke!!

funny how you think abusing a code bug is exactly the same as "abusing" an unintended gameplay design decision

Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm.
Ban Bindy
Bindy Brothers Pottery Association
True Reign
#2305 - 2012-06-23 13:45:47 UTC
Tomytronic wrote:
CCP really need their PR people to have a word with their developers and mods and tell them that knee-jerk reactions and vindictive posting are more likely to generate negative press and inflict damage on the company's reputation than measured, considered and respectful responses.

Or hell, perhaps CCP just need some PR people in the first place; it's blindingly obvious that they don't know how to manage their game and don't know how to manage expectations and reactions in the outside world.

But continue blaming the players for mistakes you made CCP. I'm sure your reputation as hands-off-developers who let the players dictate the content will last into perpetuity, no matter how reactionary your responses are.


Oh please. Grow up. You guys got your noses rubbed in it the way you rub other people's noses in it. Trotting out the PR argument? Really? People all over gaming will rejoice to see the Goons humbled. If anything this will help CCP's image.

Goonswarm brought this right down on its own head. No sympathy. But it is very nice to watch you all squirm.
Ban Bindy
Bindy Brothers Pottery Association
True Reign
#2306 - 2012-06-23 13:46:55 UTC
Quote:

funny how you think abusing a code bug is exactly the same as "abusing" an unintended gameplay design decision


Funny how you think it's not.
Enaris Kerle
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2307 - 2012-06-23 13:47:01 UTC
fyi this is like people "abusing" ingame insurance payouts when they were higher than the cost of the exploded ship. guess who haven't gotten their "ill-gotten" ISK taken away

Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm.
Easthir Ravin
Easy Co.
#2308 - 2012-06-23 13:48:53 UTC
Greetings

All I have to say is WOW freaking awesome! You have to love it when a plan comes together. High Fives all around and you guys are buying forever!

vr
East

IN THE IMORTAL WORDS OF SOCRATES:  " I drank WHAT?!"
Enaris Kerle
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2309 - 2012-06-23 13:48:57 UTC
in fact the insurance fraud was even worse for the economy because it injected ISK into it out of thin air. but I'm not going to discuss ISK sinks and faucets in this thread because there's like 10 people on this board who understand what those are

Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm.
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#2310 - 2012-06-23 13:50:15 UTC
Bolow Santosi wrote:
Mars Theran wrote:


Create a fake database value to be used in FW LP reward calculation for ship kills, then go inject fake database number into calculation for LP by killing a ship with fake database number in cargo or as ship. Sell LP and Profit.


They never created a fake database value. They inflated slow moving/stagnant items and manipulated them to be significantly higher so they could generate LP more efficiently and effectively. Nothing about that is fake.


I fail to see your logic as you fail to see mine apparently.

Flipping an item back and forth between alts in some backwater system for 250 thousand times, (random multiple for the sake of clarity), what it is worth to register it at that inflated value in CCPs database that tracks item values based on market movement over a period of time, (in this case stated as 90 days in the OP), so that you can then blow up said item and have the database call return that inflated value for use in a calculation that determines the amount of LP to reward for the related kill based on the ISK value of objects destroyed is what it is, an exploit.

It's also creating a fake database value using open, (i.e: sandbox), game mechanics. In case you haven't figured it out, that is practically the definition of an exploit.

I have no way of determining to what extent that particular exploit was used, but the OP himself stated quite clearly in the OP that he and his cabal did it early on when they were aware that dropped value was also being calculated, (which they took equal advantage of), and though he didn't say as much, he did state that they had to rethink, (i.e: recalculate profitable means), after that was fixed.

He didn't state that he stopped using it, and quite obviously it was still in use or the whole thing would have been without purpose as they would have been relying on nothing more than market trends and the base calculation which wasn't flawed provided that everything relied on uninflated, normal markets and database values.
zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2311 - 2012-06-23 13:52:01 UTC
This thread keeps getting worse and worse.
Tony Two Bullet
Monocle Madness
#2312 - 2012-06-23 13:57:08 UTC

Such is the Cost of Hubris.

Arrow

CEO  Monocle Madness ~ Mega-Insane Lotteries for the Mentally Unstable http://www.monoclemadness.com
Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Operations
#2313 - 2012-06-23 13:57:25 UTC
Thank you Goons for exposing the truly amazing extent of exploitative Shadow Play in the game of EVE, along with the simultaneous revelation of the utter incompetence of CCP in regards to monitoring the economic heartbeat of this once great game.

"Trust No One" indeed.

Now that players are fleeing to other activities (thank goodness it didn't kill the entire Summer), who will be left to be the next victims ?

Boy, when EVE's end came around, it sure was quick and sudden. Just like in Real Life.

***
Vile rat
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2314 - 2012-06-23 14:00:11 UTC
Next time somebody does something like this they would be stupid to let ccp know in any manner. That's my takeaway from this :)
Lexmana
#2315 - 2012-06-23 14:05:48 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Natasha Fatality wrote:
This is really the most fascinating thread I can remember reading in a long time. I feel lucky to have just gotten into EVE right as this is all going down. It seems like a really pivotal moment for the game's community. I have to admit, I really want to become a Goon myself at this point. :)


it really is turning into one of those moments that define EVE. Sure I am biased, but doesn't everyone like a happy ending?


There are many different "happy endings" to this story. One of them involves giving the power to a single player to completely destroy the LP market for a foreseeable future as a reward for abusing the **** out of a design flaw. I kind of like that idea since I believe that most of your LP is from the Minmatar FW store - it brings a little divine justice to the game. But I am not sure that would mean a "happy ending" for EVE or most of its players.
Oisin Sandovar
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
#2316 - 2012-06-23 14:06:08 UTC
Vile rat wrote:
Next time somebody does something like this they would be stupid to let ccp know in any manner. That's my takeaway from this :)

Again, the takeaway is to file a bug report and NOT to abuse the bug/bad design. If it hadn't been abused, there wouldn't be any repercussions.

"And the only people I fear are those who never have doubts", Billy Joel, Shades of Grey
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#2317 - 2012-06-23 14:06:57 UTC
Enaris Kerle wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Some LP was seized from people who were abusing, and I do mean abusing, this mechanic in order to prevent a crash of the FW markets. It will stay that way until Monday at the earliest.

Who's right then? You or Xhagen? Was it an exploit, or wasn't it?


Me.

Xhagen had no access to any information and is not involved in the investigative process. You can basically use any article written about this thus far for toilet paper as anything contained within the articles is fantasy invented by the bloggers writing the articles.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#2318 - 2012-06-23 14:07:29 UTC
Vile rat wrote:
Next time somebody does something like this they would be stupid to let ccp know in any manner. That's my takeaway from this :)


That would be remarkably stupid.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Benedic
EVE University
Ivy League
#2319 - 2012-06-23 14:11:35 UTC
I find it quite disturbing that you can be punished by finding clever ways to profit from the rules of Eve. This was no exploit, it was using the code and systems the way they were designed. Who knows what the **** you can get punished for next considering if it benefits you in any way they may randomly yank back all your profits.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#2320 - 2012-06-23 14:13:31 UTC
Ban Bindy wrote:
Oh please. Grow up. You guys got your noses rubbed in it the way you rub other people's noses in it. Trotting out the PR argument? Really? People all over gaming will rejoice to see the Goons humbled. If anything this will help CCP's image.

:whitehat:

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.