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exploit vs. sloppy game mechanic design
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EvEa Deva
Doomheim
#21 - 2012-06-23 09:22:55 UTC
Goons will get a wee wee slap im sure, would suck if they all rage quit Roll
Merdaneth
Angel Wing.
Khimi Harar
#22 - 2012-06-23 09:23:24 UTC
Xython wrote:


Please explain to me how using a poorly but intentionally designed game mechanic to it's breaking point is an Exploit.

Go ahead, I'll wait. If your answer is logically equivalent to "because Goons" we reserve the right to laugh at you.


It is rather simple: using an oversight or error in coding to gain an unfair advantage is an exploit.

Is it an oversight or error in coding? Yes.
Was an advantage gained? Yes.
Was the advantage unfair? Yes.

Was it an exploit? Yes
Copine Callmeknau
Dirty Vagrants
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#23 - 2012-06-23 09:25:54 UTC
Xhaiden Ora wrote:
Copine Callmeknau wrote:
How is one meant to determine whether a mechanic is intended or not?


I think its pretty damn obvious this was not CCP's intention.

Oh please
I could name a dozen things that are valid tactics yet equally an 'obvious exploit'

CCP pick and choose all the time

There should be a rather awesome pic here
NickyYo
modro
The Initiative.
#24 - 2012-06-23 09:31:00 UTC  |  Edited by: NickyYo
Goons knew exactly what they were doing was exploiting.. hense the official goon thread they posted stated "We were waiting for the exploit to be been fixed before we posted this thread".

All the goon alts now on the forums crying, goon tears and the best tears,
Goodbye goons!!

Time to quit and go back to second life, oh wait.. you was banned from that too? What a shocker you guys shot ya self in the foot with this one!

..
Serptimis
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2012-06-23 09:33:22 UTC
NickyYo wrote:
Goons knew exactly what they were doing was exploiting.. hense the official goon thread they posted stated "We were waiting for the exploit to be been fixed before we posted this thread".

All the goon alts now on the forums crying, goon tears and the best tears,
Goodbye goons!!

Time to quit and go back to second life, oh wait.. you was banned from that too? What a shocker you guys shot ya self in the foot with the one!

They took advantage of a very poorly designed game mechanic, they didnt exploit an error in game coding
NickyYo
modro
The Initiative.
#26 - 2012-06-23 09:34:44 UTC  |  Edited by: NickyYo
Serptimis wrote:
NickyYo wrote:
Goons knew exactly what they were doing was exploiting.. hense the official goon thread they posted stated "We were waiting for the exploit to be been fixed before we posted this thread".

All the goon alts now on the forums crying, goon tears and the best tears,
Goodbye goons!!

Time to quit and go back to second life, oh wait.. you was banned from that too? What a shocker you guys shot ya self in the foot with the one!

They took advantage of a very poorly designed game mechanic, they didnt exploit an error in game coding


Well they broke the EULA, they knew it was an exploit So thats that, and yes they did exploit an error in the game coding.

..
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#27 - 2012-06-23 09:39:04 UTC
NickyYo wrote:
Serptimis wrote:
NickyYo wrote:
Goons knew exactly what they were doing was exploiting.. hense the official goon thread they posted stated "We were waiting for the exploit to be been fixed before we posted this thread".

All the goon alts now on the forums crying, goon tears and the best tears,
Goodbye goons!!

Time to quit and go back to second life, oh wait.. you was banned from that too? What a shocker you guys shot ya self in the foot with the one!

They took advantage of a very poorly designed game mechanic, they didnt exploit an error in game coding


Well they broke the EULA, they knew it was an exploit So thats that, and yes they did exploit an error in the game coding.


What they do happens every day in real life economy in some way....
in fact they may make things a little bit safer by showing us the flaws....the Spagetti-monster bless them

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP
Serptimis
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2012-06-23 09:39:55 UTC
NickyYo wrote:
Serptimis wrote:
NickyYo wrote:
Goons knew exactly what they were doing was exploiting.. hense the official goon thread they posted stated "We were waiting for the exploit to be been fixed before we posted this thread".

All the goon alts now on the forums crying, goon tears and the best tears,
Goodbye goons!!

Time to quit and go back to second life, oh wait.. you was banned from that too? What a shocker you guys shot ya self in the foot with the one!

They took advantage of a very poorly designed game mechanic, they didnt exploit an error in game coding


Well they broke the EULA, they knew it was an exploit So thats that, and yes they did exploit an error in the game coding.

Didnt CCP change FW to reward LP on value of kills made? And also designed the new valuation of items based on the value of average prices over 90 days. Wasnt that what these guys used? It may have been an error to design the game that way, but it was itentional
NickyYo
modro
The Initiative.
#29 - 2012-06-23 09:42:35 UTC  |  Edited by: NickyYo
Eugene Kerner wrote:
NickyYo wrote:
Serptimis wrote:
NickyYo wrote:
Goons knew exactly what they were doing was exploiting.. hense the official goon thread they posted stated "We were waiting for the exploit to be been fixed before we posted this thread".

All the goon alts now on the forums crying, goon tears and the best tears,
Goodbye goons!!

Time to quit and go back to second life, oh wait.. you was banned from that too? What a shocker you guys shot ya self in the foot with the one!

They took advantage of a very poorly designed game mechanic, they didnt exploit an error in game coding


Well they broke the EULA, they knew it was an exploit So thats that, and yes they did exploit an error in the game coding.


What they do happens every day in real life economy in some way....
in fact they may make things a little bit safer by showing us the flaws....the Spagetti-monster bless them


This is not RealLife and people who do it in real life markets get sent to prison when they get caught.

This is a computer game and goons broke the terms and conditions, thus damages CCP's reputation product and causing embarrassment. Goons thought they were godly doing this showing off posting about it, NOW CCP punish.

MOoore tears please, eve will be better without them.

..
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#30 - 2012-06-23 09:44:53 UTC
Ris Dnalor wrote:
...That's noones' fault but CCP...

So Goons made sure to notify GM's/Dev's of the massive loophole prior to molesting it?

The description I read of the sequence said specifically that the Bwains! behind it intentionally avoided testing/doing it on SiSi before TQ .. smells to me like the people involved knowing full well that their plan would be borderline Big smile

The market will not need to adjust as it concerns a limited number of items, biggest problem is that the Minmatar militia grunts will never be able to make any sort of profit from LP as any item they can/will buy will be at rock bottom for ages due to the Goon stockpiles.

Large portion of blame is on CCP though, anyone with half a brain and gaming knowledge knows that a x4 modifier is huge .. so huge that most singleplayer games avoid modifiers of that magnitude entirely as it is nigh impossible to balance .. and Eve is a MMO ...

As for punishment .. 'meh'. Remove all ill-gotten items/LP/ISK, give back all minerals/ships used to catalyse the process and slap wrist (ie. roll-back in similar way as was done partially after tower exploit).
Delen Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2012-06-23 09:50:57 UTC
Xhaiden Ora wrote:
Copine Callmeknau wrote:
How is one meant to determine whether a mechanic is intended or not?


I think its pretty damn obvious this was not CCP's intention.


Delen Ormand wrote:
Wait, didn't the bankers make a shitload of money from fraud, then get bailed out with a shitload more money taken from the taxpayer and never really suffer any legal consequences for it?


Essentially, yes. Following the op's logic you should just pat them on the back and tell em "Good game guys!". I mean, they were just using the game mechanics, right? -.-


What I meant was, they perpetrated fraud, brought the economy down, then got something better than a pat on the back - they got off pretty much scot-free, with the taxpayer carrying the can for them. Still, be a bit daft to compare punishments (or lack of) in the real world to a bit of white-collar Eve crime, so ignore me :)
Ghost Xray
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2012-06-23 09:51:34 UTC
Serptimis wrote:
NickyYo wrote:
Serptimis wrote:
NickyYo wrote:
Goons knew exactly what they were doing was exploiting.. hense the official goon thread they posted stated "We were waiting for the exploit to be been fixed before we posted this thread".

All the goon alts now on the forums crying, goon tears and the best tears,
Goodbye goons!!

Time to quit and go back to second life, oh wait.. you was banned from that too? What a shocker you guys shot ya self in the foot with the one!

They took advantage of a very poorly designed game mechanic, they didnt exploit an error in game coding


Well they broke the EULA, they knew it was an exploit So thats that, and yes they did exploit an error in the game coding.

Didnt CCP change FW to reward LP on value of kills made? And also designed the new valuation of items based on the value of average prices over 90 days. Wasnt that what these guys used? It may have been an error to design the game that way, but it was itentional


Riddle me this "Blue" guy.

Can I join RVB with alts on both sides? Can I then drive my Red guy into my Blue guy, say, 10,000 times in order to throw the stats/KB off? Would the CEO or whoever runs that show dismiss it? Or would they say, "hey guy, this isn't really why we have RVB. Go do that somewhere else."

I don't know if RVB care about KB stat padding or not.. doesn't matter. The point is RVB doesn't exist to let alts kill themselves.

Likewise, Faction Wars doesn't either.
Xhaiden Ora
Doomheim
#33 - 2012-06-23 10:09:33 UTC
Copine Callmeknau wrote:
I could name a dozen things that are valid tactics yet equally an 'obvious exploit'

CCP pick and choose all the time


You seriously think CCP intended to flood the economy with billions of isk and drive down the value of LPs? =p
Copine Callmeknau
Dirty Vagrants
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#34 - 2012-06-23 10:13:39 UTC
Xhaiden Ora wrote:
Copine Callmeknau wrote:
I could name a dozen things that are valid tactics yet equally an 'obvious exploit'

CCP pick and choose all the time


You seriously think CCP intended to flood the economy with billions of isk and drive down the value of LPs? =p

I don't pretend to know what they intended to do, but driving down the value of LP is the obvious consequence of reworking the LP store to give discounts.

Also if you believe the economy has been flooded with 'billion of isk' then you fail to understand how the LP store works.
Billions of ISK flowed out of the economy, not into it

There should be a rather awesome pic here
Xhaiden Ora
Doomheim
#35 - 2012-06-23 10:39:38 UTC
Copine Callmeknau wrote:
I don't pretend to know what they intended to do, but driving down the value of LP is the obvious consequence of reworking the LP store to give discounts.


What they intended is the entire crux of the issue as what they intended determines whether or not this is an exploit. I sincerely do not believe they intended this otherwise there wouldn't be a problem. Obviously there's a problem. So it wasn't intended. Hence its an exploit. What CCP chooses to do about it is another matter but lets not pretend this is what CCP intended to happen.



Copine Callmeknau wrote:

Also if you believe the economy has been flooded with 'billion of isk' then you fail to understand how the LP store works.
Billions of ISK flowed out of the economy, not into it


Into certain wallets is likely a better way of putting it, yes.
Copine Callmeknau
Dirty Vagrants
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#36 - 2012-06-23 10:50:19 UTC
Xhaiden Ora wrote:
Copine Callmeknau wrote:
I don't pretend to know what they intended to do, but driving down the value of LP is the obvious consequence of reworking the LP store to give discounts.


What they intended is the entire crux of the issue as what they intended determines whether or not this is an exploit. I sincerely do not believe they intended this otherwise there wouldn't be a problem. Obviously there's a problem. So it wasn't intended. Hence its an exploit. What CCP chooses to do about it is another matter but lets not pretend this is what CCP intended to happen.



Copine Callmeknau wrote:

Also if you believe the economy has been flooded with 'billion of isk' then you fail to understand how the LP store works.
Billions of ISK flowed out of the economy, not into it


Into certain wallets is likely a better way of putting it, yes.

I'm not saying it was intended, I'm saying it's impossible to know what CCP intend or don't intend, because GM's give contradictory responses when asked about these things and CCP in the past have approved activities as dubious as what the GS have done this last week
Basically it's a crapshoot

Yes flowing into certain wallets is a better way of putting it, it's quite irrelevant though, money flows from one player to another on a daily basis.

There should be a rather awesome pic here
Cpt Roghie
Chemical Invasion Co.
#37 - 2012-06-23 10:52:53 UTC
NickyYo wrote:
Goons knew exactly what they were doing was exploiting.. hense the official goon thread they posted stated "We were waiting for the exploit to be been fixed before we posted this thread".

All the goon alts now on the forums crying, goon tears and the best tears,
Goodbye goons!!

Time to quit and go back to second life, oh wait.. you was banned from that too? What a shocker you guys shot ya self in the foot with this one!


Werent you supposed to quit? The amount of bulllshit comming out of you is incredible.

This could be fun.
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
#38 - 2012-06-23 10:57:29 UTC
Eugene Kerner wrote:
NickyYo wrote:
Serptimis wrote:
NickyYo wrote:
Goons knew exactly what they were doing was exploiting.. hense the official goon thread they posted stated "We were waiting for the exploit to be been fixed before we posted this thread".

All the goon alts now on the forums crying, goon tears and the best tears,
Goodbye goons!!

Time to quit and go back to second life, oh wait.. you was banned from that too? What a shocker you guys shot ya self in the foot with the one!

They took advantage of a very poorly designed game mechanic, they didnt exploit an error in game coding


Well they broke the EULA, they knew it was an exploit So thats that, and yes they did exploit an error in the game coding.


What they do happens every day in real life economy in some way....
in fact they may make things a little bit safer by showing us the flaws....the Spagetti-monster bless them


Yeah and in real life if they play the markets in a way not intended the FSA comes down hard and fines them. They should have just told CCP about the flaw in their plan, not used it then told them.

Tal

Dave stark
#39 - 2012-06-23 11:08:22 UTC
was it spotted on sisi before it went live? yes.
did it go live anyway? yes.

i fail to see how it wasn't intended.
Cpt Roghie
Chemical Invasion Co.
#40 - 2012-06-23 11:12:46 UTC
Talon SilverHawk wrote:
Eugene Kerner wrote:
NickyYo wrote:
Serptimis wrote:
NickyYo wrote:
Goons knew exactly what they were doing was exploiting.. hense the official goon thread they posted stated "We were waiting for the exploit to be been fixed before we posted this thread".

All the goon alts now on the forums crying, goon tears and the best tears,
Goodbye goons!!

Time to quit and go back to second life, oh wait.. you was banned from that too? What a shocker you guys shot ya self in the foot with the one!

They took advantage of a very poorly designed game mechanic, they didnt exploit an error in game coding


Well they broke the EULA, they knew it was an exploit So thats that, and yes they did exploit an error in the game coding.


What they do happens every day in real life economy in some way....
in fact they may make things a little bit safer by showing us the flaws....the Spagetti-monster bless them


Yeah and in real life if they play the markets in a way not intended the FSA comes down hard and fines them. They should have just told CCP about the flaw in their plan, not used it then told them.

Tal



Eve =/= Real life.

This could be fun.