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Goons 4x4ing through the Sandbox - Market Manipulation on a Grand Scale

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Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
#1901 - 2012-06-23 01:20:37 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Enaris Kerle wrote:

Nobody got banned. Which is entirely the point I was trying to make re: that guy who wanted to have all goons banned for what is effectively playing the market on a grand scale.



While I grant I can't think of anyone getting banned for those particular ones: I might draw your attention to the Moon Goo Recycling exploit that went on for several years. Ph, and that buisness with 'The GM who shall not be named' .

You know, i seem to recall goons being pretty damn hot about some of those and members of both BoB and Goons getting banned in that excrement storm.
The difference with the Moon Goo is that something was magically created. It was not a mechanic.

When you are creating items/capability out of thin air you are exploiting a bug.

When you are making wealth by stressing a poorly designed game mechanic you are exploiting CCP hubris.

It is an important difference.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1902 - 2012-06-23 01:22:02 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Aryth wrote:

I completely agree they would. Hence we kept it low key.

Another pcgamer article from the PR guy.

PCGamer



I particularly love this part:

"On the other hand I worry that some players don’t see it that way, that they don’t understand they are capable of matching Goonswarm’s (arguable) successes through the strength of their own imagination and social circle and that Goons, like any Alliance in EVE’s history, aren’t laser-proof. T"

How exactly does one match the staggering profits of such an exploit after CCP has specifically iced it? Enlighten me as to how I can make trillions in profit with next to no risk whatsoever.


Pretty easily. Speculate on patches. That is what we do. This isn't the first multi-trillion hit we have landed on a patch.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Simon Page
Page Capital
#1903 - 2012-06-23 01:22:32 UTC
Welp: http://www.pcgamesn.com/eve/ccp-respond-goonswarm-eve-heist-goons-arent-laserproof

It's been confirmed that each Goonswarm member did, indeed get 100bn isk from the exploit as rumored. CCP probably hasn't done anything about it yet because of the sheer number of people involved, but I hope they don't confine their confiscations to the 'Jewbal'...
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#1904 - 2012-06-23 01:23:10 UTC
Enaris Kerle wrote:

The Ferrogel dupe exploit was a flaw in the code. This is a flaw in the design. Exactly like PI and Pax, which is why I used those examples.
And comparing this to the t20 incident is just ridiculous and doesn't even warrant a comment.


So, it being a flaw at the design stage rather than the programming stage or Human Resources stage makes it ok?

I'm sorry, but exploit = exploit =exploit. Whether it's exploiting a contact, a flaw in the code or a poorly planned design decision.
Paint
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1905 - 2012-06-23 01:23:46 UTC
Graic Gabtar wrote:
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Enaris Kerle wrote:

Nobody got banned. Which is entirely the point I was trying to make re: that guy who wanted to have all goons banned for what is effectively playing the market on a grand scale.



While I grant I can't think of anyone getting banned for those particular ones: I might draw your attention to the Moon Goo Recycling exploit that went on for several years. Ph, and that buisness with 'The GM who shall not be named' .

You know, i seem to recall goons being pretty damn hot about some of those and members of both BoB and Goons getting banned in that excrement storm.
The difference with the Moon Goo is that something was magically created. It was not a mechanic.

When you are creating items/capability out of thin air you are exploiting a bug.

When you are making wealth by stressing a poorly designed game mechanic you are exploiting CCP hubris.

It is an important difference.


You just don't get it. Spending a lot of time and effort figuring out how to buy cheap and sell dear was never intended to be supported by the eve market or mechanics.


OH WAIT.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1906 - 2012-06-23 01:24:00 UTC
Another article
http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2012/06/22/eve-players-loot-new-in-game-system-for-unheard-of-wealth-troll-everyone.aspx

CCP is getting a lot of press from this. Looks pretty positive too.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1907 - 2012-06-23 01:25:03 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Enlighten me as to how I can make trillions in profit with next to no risk whatsoever.


the risk is CCP not being happy with it and seizing it

or, you know, the plan failing entirely because this isn't the same as mission running

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1908 - 2012-06-23 01:26:10 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Enaris Kerle wrote:

The Ferrogel dupe exploit was a flaw in the code. This is a flaw in the design. Exactly like PI and Pax, which is why I used those examples.
And comparing this to the t20 incident is just ridiculous and doesn't even warrant a comment.


So, it being a flaw at the design stage rather than the programming stage or Human Resources stage makes it ok?

I'm sorry, but exploit = exploit =exploit. Whether it's exploiting a contact, a flaw in the code or a poorly planned design decision.



The ferrogel dupe was an obvious bug. You had a CCP published # for how much crap your silos shoulda been getting per month/hr.

Combining mechanics to make something new is not a bug. Generating material out of thin air is.
We never generated anything out of thin air, everything had a cost. It was just heavily discounted compared to what we could profit.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Paint
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1909 - 2012-06-23 01:26:38 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Enaris Kerle wrote:

The Ferrogel dupe exploit was a flaw in the code. This is a flaw in the design. Exactly like PI and Pax, which is why I used those examples.
And comparing this to the t20 incident is just ridiculous and doesn't even warrant a comment.


So, it being a flaw at the design stage rather than the programming stage or Human Resources stage makes it ok?

I'm sorry, but exploit = exploit =exploit. Whether it's exploiting a contact, a flaw in the code or a poorly planned design decision.



Only if you use the part of the definition in the dictionary that defines exploit as a bold or daring feat. No bug was taken advantage of here. This was strictly market analysis. You haven't the faintest clue of what you are talking about.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1910 - 2012-06-23 01:26:45 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Enlighten me as to how I can make trillions in profit with next to no risk whatsoever.


the risk is CCP not being happy with it and seizing it

or, you know, the plan failing entirely because this isn't the same as mission running

I'd hardly try to claim it was riskless

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Xython
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1911 - 2012-06-23 01:26:58 UTC
From This interview:

http://visir.is/misnotudu-glufu-i-eve-online---hognudust-um-21-milljon-isk-i-leiknum/article/2012120629638

Quote:
Spurður hvort spilararnir þurfi að takast á við einhverjar afleiðingar vegna málsins svarar Pétur: „Tæknilega séð voru þeir ekki að gera neitt sem var bannað. Þannig það er óljóst hvað verður gert."

Pétur segir spilarana hafa einfaldlega nýtt sér glufu innan leiksins, „og er í raun týpískt fyrir EVE spilara. Það eru oft ótrúlega greindir náungar að spila leikinn. Það er frekar að það sé borin virðing fyrir hugvitsseminni hér innan húss," segir Pétur að lokum.


Or, in English:

Quote:
Asked whether the players have to deal with any consequences of the case said Peter, "Technically speaking, they were not doing anything that was forbidden. Thus, it is unclear what will be done. "

Peter says the players have simply taken advantage of cracks within the game, "and is actually very typical for EVE players. There are often amazing diagnosed guys playing the game. It is further submitted that it is respect for the creative songwriting here inside the house, "said Peter, in the end.


CCP official: Goon Market Manipulation NOT against the rules, and NOT an exploit.

Tinfoil hat wearing pubbies, your comments?
Paint
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1912 - 2012-06-23 01:27:57 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Enaris Kerle wrote:

The Ferrogel dupe exploit was a flaw in the code. This is a flaw in the design. Exactly like PI and Pax, which is why I used those examples.
And comparing this to the t20 incident is just ridiculous and doesn't even warrant a comment.


So, it being a flaw at the design stage rather than the programming stage or Human Resources stage makes it ok?

I'm sorry, but exploit = exploit =exploit. Whether it's exploiting a contact, a flaw in the code or a poorly planned design decision.



The ferrogel dupe was an obvious bug. You had a CCP published # for how much crap your silos shoulda been getting per month/hr.

Combining mechanics to make something new is not a bug. Generating material out of thin air is.
We never generated anything out of thin air, everything had a cost. It was just heavily discounted compared to what we could profit.


The best part is the various moon goo dupes back in the day went on for months before anything was done (it might have even been years, much like some of the complex bugs).
Xython
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1913 - 2012-06-23 01:28:56 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
How exactly does one match the staggering profits of such an exploit after CCP has specifically iced it? Enlighten me as to how I can make trillions in profit with next to no risk whatsoever.


Here you go. Ignore the crackpot pubbies on the forums ranting about how it's oh so dangerous an activity, you'll die on average once a year or so and make a few Trillion with absolutely no risk due to the same crackpot pubbies blubbering to CCP every single time someone looks at them funny.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1914 - 2012-06-23 01:29:10 UTC
google translate owns

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#1915 - 2012-06-23 01:31:01 UTC
Paint wrote:

The best part is the various moon goo dupes back in the day went on for months before anything was done (it might have even been years, much like some of the complex bugs).


4-5 years, IIRC. As well both your alliance and BoB knew.
ModeratedToSilence
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1916 - 2012-06-23 01:31:10 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Aryth wrote:

I completely agree they would. Hence we kept it low key.

Another pcgamer article from the PR guy.

PCGamer



I particularly love this part:

"On the other hand I worry that some players don’t see it that way, that they don’t understand they are capable of matching Goonswarm’s (arguable) successes through the strength of their own imagination and social circle and that Goons, like any Alliance in EVE’s history, aren’t laser-proof. T"

How exactly does one match the staggering profits of such an exploit after CCP has specifically iced it? Enlighten me as to how I can make trillions in profit with next to no risk whatsoever.


Pretty easily. Speculate on patches. That is what we do. This isn't the first multi-trillion hit we have landed on a patch.


That is why Dev Blogs and Patch notes are the true gold in Eve Online.

Pre Tyrannis: PI materials research
Pre Incursions: Snasha drop research
Pre Incarna: Plex pricing research
Pre Inferno: Faction Warfare research

This is a quick list with little thought from recent patches - there are myriads of options for speculation every patch. Any individual who claims to really "play" Eve Online should be up to date with upcoming changes and run their own testing on Sisi.

If the Goons involved n this particular patch speculation are "punished" then CCP are changing a precedent that has been utilised on every patch released since I started playing this game.
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#1917 - 2012-06-23 01:32:36 UTC
Xython wrote:
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
How exactly does one match the staggering profits of such an exploit after CCP has specifically iced it? Enlighten me as to how I can make trillions in profit with next to no risk whatsoever.


Here you go. Ignore the crackpot pubbies on the forums ranting about how it's oh so dangerous an activity, you'll die on average once a year or so and make a few Trillion with absolutely no risk due to the same crackpot pubbies blubbering to CCP every single time someone looks at them funny.


What do I mine that makes me, personally, 100 billion isk in 2 months or so? Please, keep trying. I'm dying to hear this.
Paint
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1918 - 2012-06-23 01:33:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Paint
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Paint wrote:

The best part is the various moon goo dupes back in the day went on for months before anything was done (it might have even been years, much like some of the complex bugs).


4-5 years, IIRC. As well both your alliance and BoB knew.


Yes back in the syndicate days when goons were space rich with our own complexes and Ferogel moons right?

How dumb are you?

You know who Evoke are(were) right?
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1919 - 2012-06-23 01:35:20 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
What do I mine that makes me, personally, 100 billion isk in 2 months or so? Please, keep trying. I'm dying to hear this.


multibox

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
#1920 - 2012-06-23 01:36:09 UTC
Xython wrote:
From This interview:

http://visir.is/misnotudu-glufu-i-eve-online---hognudust-um-21-milljon-isk-i-leiknum/article/2012120629638

Quote:
Spurður hvort spilararnir þurfi að takast á við einhverjar afleiðingar vegna málsins svarar Pétur: „Tæknilega séð voru þeir ekki að gera neitt sem var bannað. Þannig það er óljóst hvað verður gert."

Pétur segir spilarana hafa einfaldlega nýtt sér glufu innan leiksins, „og er í raun týpískt fyrir EVE spilara. Það eru oft ótrúlega greindir náungar að spila leikinn. Það er frekar að það sé borin virðing fyrir hugvitsseminni hér innan húss," segir Pétur að lokum.


Or, in English:

Quote:
Asked whether the players have to deal with any consequences of the case said Peter, "Technically speaking, they were not doing anything that was forbidden. Thus, it is unclear what will be done. "

Peter says the players have simply taken advantage of cracks within the game, "and is actually very typical for EVE players. There are often amazing diagnosed guys playing the game. It is further submitted that it is respect for the creative songwriting here inside the house, "said Peter, in the end.


CCP official: Goon Market Manipulation NOT against the rules, and NOT an exploit.

Tinfoil hat wearing pubbies, your comments?
So any comment on when items will be returned?