These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Goons 4x4ing through the Sandbox - Market Manipulation on a Grand Scale

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#1881 - 2012-06-23 00:54:32 UTC
Well played goons.

I love the whole datacore bit.

One question though. Why did you bother with amarr lp at all?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
#1882 - 2012-06-23 00:56:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Graic Gabtar
Aryth wrote:
That is what is the most troubling about this. No way I thought this was coming. This was way inbounds to us.

I will be attending a wedding tomorrow, so gone pretty much the entire day and most of Sunday. So I will follow the thread when I can, but am waiting to see what their devblog says. This runs contrary to everything we thought so I am very curious to see their official stance.
I imagine it would have been clear once you read this:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.
The underlying anger of being outplayed is evident.

And the fact that an "investigation" seems to be merely lip service to the stated pre-determined outcome.

If CCP are going to come out and say this kind of thing they need to back it up with reasons as to why. Will any analysis or findings be made public? With respect Aryth I'd like to see CCP numbers as well.

However, MORE importantly. Where is the damned CSM? Isn't this kind of issue right up their alley. If you can accept what has been said and done so far as fact CCP have decided that EVE is no longer a sandbox, but a theme park where the boundaries are set by their own tolerance levels for corporate embarrassment. How can anyone push the limits of what is possible in the game with that kind of indistinct constraint.

Particularly one where once crossed the response is spiteful and judgemental as evidenced by CCP Sreegs' comment.

Why is the CSM being silent on this?

Turning the EVE sandpit into a theme park seems more important than pants.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1883 - 2012-06-23 00:57:30 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Well played goons.

I love the whole datacore bit.

One question though. Why did you bother with amarr lp at all?


Needed liquidity. Amarr faction ships presented a fast route to capital. We were trying to avoid HULKSMASH on everything in site. So we spread out the ISK as wide as possible. Ammo/Skillbooks/Faction ships/ Implants etc. Across multiple factions. We spider webbed across all of FW with Minmatar as the launching pad.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Preceptor Stigmartyr
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1884 - 2012-06-23 01:02:01 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Preceptor Stigmartyr wrote:

"Them" being carebears who want Eve to be a galactic farmville. Either it's a sandbox or it isn't.



Oh, I'm sorry, maybe you missed the part where your alliance used the 'sandbox' as an excuse to effectively bring an end to the sandbox. Minor detail.


Large transfers of wealth and/or manipulation of markets is common place IRL. The sky isn't falling on wallstreet and so much isk $ has been thrown in the fireplace.

The landscape certainly changes, and power shifts. Welcome to the last 10k years of human history. Eve might be better off to stop piddling with the vapid NPC story lines and weave more of the player corps into the story line. Events like this are a reminder that their creation is possessed by a will of it's own. That will being active players.

We're loud, we're proud, deal with it.

**4/19 **NEVER FORGET ಠ_ಠ
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#1885 - 2012-06-23 01:02:36 UTC
Enaris Kerle wrote:
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Oh, I'm sorry, maybe you missed the part where your alliance used the 'sandbox' as an excuse to effectively bring an end to the sandbox. Minor detail.

And this scheme broke the sandbox exactly how?



Ok, let me explain then: You rigged both PvP and PvE on a grand scale. Effectively, you successfully ruined the game for thousands of players more than you could have ever hoped to have actually fought in a conventional contest of wealth or military power via exploits and loopholes.

While I congratulate you on your inventiveness, I might point out that while goons policy is to drink the tears of other players, effectively trying to destroy EvE is ultimately counter productive, and if kept up, CCP will have to bring down the hammer on you.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1886 - 2012-06-23 01:03:45 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Enaris Kerle wrote:
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Oh, I'm sorry, maybe you missed the part where your alliance used the 'sandbox' as an excuse to effectively bring an end to the sandbox. Minor detail.

And this scheme broke the sandbox exactly how?



Ok, let me explain then: You rigged both PvP and PvE on a grand scale. Effectively, you successfully ruined the game for thousands of players more than you could have ever hoped to have actually fought in a conventional contest of wealth or military power via exploits and loopholes.

While I congratulate you on your inventiveness, I might point out that while goons policy is to drink the tears of other players, effectively trying to destroy EvE is ultimately counter productive, and if kept up, CCP will have to bring down the hammer on you.


I completely agree they would. Hence we kept it low key.

Another pcgamer article from the PR guy.

PCGamer

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#1887 - 2012-06-23 01:04:02 UTC
Preceptor Stigmartyr wrote:
Enaris Kerle wrote:
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
So, in other words, CCP Devs (goons) engineered a situation where Goons (not CCP) made an excessive **** ton of isk, and threatened to obliterate anything remotely resembling the market, and now CCP (not Goons) has come in, confiscated their toys, and slapped them on the wrist.

Mind you, again, if any player corp (not Goons) were to do this, the entire corp would get the ban hammer. But, as usual, goon shenanigans are 'Stop that 'wink wink nudge nudge'.

Let me ask the question that no one else will ask: What does goonswarm have to do to get banned? Shoot Hilmar's family? Blow up a major landmark and kill X hundred people? I mean, seriously, CCP, if any of the rest of us did half this ****, we'd be banned in a second.

it's true, everyone who ever manipulated the market in EVE or made money from the PI changes or Pax Amarria got banned, and their entire corp too


This.


Idea It seems less about Goon vs. CCP than us vs. them

"Them" being carebears who want Eve to be a galactic farmville. Either it's a sandbox or it isn't.


Bullshit.

Who got banned for PI changes?

Who got banned for Pax Amarria?

I haven't heard any of that... what even happened? How would that happen? Got a link? Anyone?

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#1888 - 2012-06-23 01:05:26 UTC
Preceptor Stigmartyr wrote:


Large transfers of wealth and/or manipulation of markets is common place IRL. The sky isn't falling on wallstreet and so much isk $ has been thrown in the fireplace.


Preceptor: again, I think maybe you might have missed some things since that's pretty much exactly why the sky is and has been falling on Wall Street, actually....
Paint
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1889 - 2012-06-23 01:06:47 UTC
Gogela wrote:
Preceptor Stigmartyr wrote:
Enaris Kerle wrote:
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
So, in other words, CCP Devs (goons) engineered a situation where Goons (not CCP) made an excessive **** ton of isk, and threatened to obliterate anything remotely resembling the market, and now CCP (not Goons) has come in, confiscated their toys, and slapped them on the wrist.

Mind you, again, if any player corp (not Goons) were to do this, the entire corp would get the ban hammer. But, as usual, goon shenanigans are 'Stop that 'wink wink nudge nudge'.

Let me ask the question that no one else will ask: What does goonswarm have to do to get banned? Shoot Hilmar's family? Blow up a major landmark and kill X hundred people? I mean, seriously, CCP, if any of the rest of us did half this ****, we'd be banned in a second.

it's true, everyone who ever manipulated the market in EVE or made money from the PI changes or Pax Amarria got banned, and their entire corp too


This.


Idea It seems less about Goon vs. CCP than us vs. them

"Them" being carebears who want Eve to be a galactic farmville. Either it's a sandbox or it isn't.


Bullshit.

Who got banned for PI changes?

Who got banned for Pax Amarria?

I haven't heard any of that... what even happened? How would that happen? Got a link? Anyone?


Again, you guys aren't even giving good examples. Removing the t2 lottery and leaving those bpo in game has allowed the players who own them to print 100s of trillions of isk over the years and they are still at it.
Enaris Kerle
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1890 - 2012-06-23 01:07:22 UTC
Gogela wrote:
Preceptor Stigmartyr wrote:
Enaris Kerle wrote:

it's true, everyone who ever manipulated the market in EVE or made money from the PI changes or Pax Amarria got banned, and their entire corp too


Bullshit.

Who got banned for PI changes?

Who got banned for Pax Amarria?

I haven't heard any of that... what even happened? How would that happen? Got a link? Anyone?

Nobody got banned. Which is entirely the point I was trying to make re: that guy who wanted to have all goons banned for what is effectively playing the market on a grand scale.

Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm.
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#1891 - 2012-06-23 01:09:14 UTC
Aryth wrote:

I completely agree they would. Hence we kept it low key.

Another pcgamer article from the PR guy.

PCGamer



I particularly love this part:

"On the other hand I worry that some players don’t see it that way, that they don’t understand they are capable of matching Goonswarm’s (arguable) successes through the strength of their own imagination and social circle and that Goons, like any Alliance in EVE’s history, aren’t laser-proof. T"

How exactly does one match the staggering profits of such an exploit after CCP has specifically iced it? Enlighten me as to how I can make trillions in profit with next to no risk whatsoever.
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1892 - 2012-06-23 01:11:53 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
tl;dr

Goon dramaBig smile

nope



how can that be nope...?

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Paint
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1893 - 2012-06-23 01:12:05 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Aryth wrote:

I completely agree they would. Hence we kept it low key.

Another pcgamer article from the PR guy.

PCGamer



I particularly love this part:

"On the other hand I worry that some players don’t see it that way, that they don’t understand they are capable of matching Goonswarm’s (arguable) successes through the strength of their own imagination and social circle and that Goons, like any Alliance in EVE’s history, aren’t laser-proof. T"

How exactly does one match the staggering profits of such an exploit after CCP has specifically iced it? Enlighten me as to how I can make trillions in profit with next to no risk whatsoever.


You might try actually reading the thread because a ton of examples have already been given.
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#1894 - 2012-06-23 01:12:49 UTC
Enaris Kerle wrote:

Nobody got banned. Which is entirely the point I was trying to make re: that guy who wanted to have all goons banned for what is effectively playing the market on a grand scale.



While I grant I can't think of anyone getting banned for those particular ones: I might draw your attention to the Moon Goo Recycling exploit that went on for several years. Ph, and that buisness with 'The GM who shall not be named' .

You know, i seem to recall goons being pretty damn hot about some of those and members of both BoB and Goons getting banned in that excrement storm.
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#1895 - 2012-06-23 01:14:14 UTC
Paint wrote:

You might try actually reading the thread because a ton of examples have already been given.


Sorry, after dozens of pages of goons patting themselves on the back, and then goons screaming about their toys being taken away, I decided not to read then entire 94 page thread.
Paint
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1896 - 2012-06-23 01:15:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Paint
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Enaris Kerle wrote:

Nobody got banned. Which is entirely the point I was trying to make re: that guy who wanted to have all goons banned for what is effectively playing the market on a grand scale.



While I grant I can't think of anyone getting banned for those particular ones: I might draw your attention to the Moon Goo Recycling exploit that went on for several years. Ph, and that buisness with 'The GM who shall not be named' .

You know, i seem to recall goons being pretty damn hot about some of those and members of both BoB and Goons getting banned in that excrement storm.


You idiot, no goons where involved in that. Second, that was an actual duplication exploit/exploit where they were creating goo from nothing.
kyrieee
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1897 - 2012-06-23 01:15:48 UTC
I do enjoy rivers of tears, but I think it's important for the integrity of the sandbox that these sorts of things aren't reprimanded. EVE isn't a game where the players have to fear the banhammer for scamming, metagaming, ganking or being clever and using certain game mechanics in unintended ways. CCP not interfering is important, and quite frankly the problem was with their design of the system, not a bug in the implementation that was exploited.
Enaris Kerle
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1898 - 2012-06-23 01:16:08 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Enaris Kerle wrote:

Nobody got banned. Which is entirely the point I was trying to make re: that guy who wanted to have all goons banned for what is effectively playing the market on a grand scale.



While I grant I can't think of anyone getting banned for those particular ones: I might draw your attention to the Moon Goo Recycling exploit that went on for several years. Ph, and that buisness with 'The GM who shall not be named' . .

The Ferrogel dupe exploit was a flaw in the code. This is a flaw in the design. Exactly like PI and Pax, which is why I used those examples.
And comparing this to the t20 incident is just ridiculous and doesn't even warrant a comment.

Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm.
Paint
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1899 - 2012-06-23 01:16:28 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Paint wrote:

You might try actually reading the thread because a ton of examples have already been given.


Sorry, after dozens of pages of goons patting themselves on the back, and then goons screaming about their toys being taken away, I decided not to read then entire 94 page thread.


That was obvious. It was also obvious you didn't even read the posts on the same page that listed examples. ACES
Xython
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1900 - 2012-06-23 01:20:21 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
How exactly does one match the staggering profits of such an exploit after CCP has specifically iced it? Enlighten me as to how I can make trillions in profit with next to no risk whatsoever.


You'll note that CCP is not calling this an exploit, and in interviews so far they are very carefully not calling it an exploit.