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Goons 4x4ing through the Sandbox - Market Manipulation on a Grand Scale

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Time Funnel
Just a side dish
Outspoken Alliance
#1621 - 2012-06-22 20:54:43 UTC
Aryth wrote:

They seized assets that existed before the patch.


The irony of all this is that in order for them to roll back this stuff they are going to need some pretty awesome auditor-accountancy types. Perhaps Sony can send some in for a week.

Reminds me of the saying "An ounce of dealing with a game mechanic problem when you are told about it is worth a pound of figuring it out after someone abuses it."
Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#1622 - 2012-06-22 20:54:55 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Oisin Sandovar wrote:
Aryth wrote:
CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't.

I think the message is really, file a bug report.


This has worked really well in the past, I hear.



That is no justification Malcanis. If you know its broken and abusable, report it and carry on as before, maybe spread the word that it is broken (though maybe not HOW it is broken) so that others can also file reports. But never, ever abuse it, or you will end up like a certain group of individuals that just came to light.

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1623 - 2012-06-22 20:55:27 UTC
Finally! CCP is creating content. Instead of them being... you know, player created.Big smile

Also: The logs! They show nothing! The assets are a lie. You never had them to begin with.Cool
Blawrf McTaggart
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1624 - 2012-06-22 20:56:19 UTC
one must ask what a world we have wrought when white hats are shat upon.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#1625 - 2012-06-22 20:56:23 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
I believe a certain Mr K. U. Gutsumen could have told you that.

Kugutsumen is no longer censored, I believe.

Also, the level of butthurt gloating has reached maximum density.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#1626 - 2012-06-22 20:57:05 UTC
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:
one must ask what a world we have wrought when white hats are shat upon.

That stetson looked better in brown anyway.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Time Funnel
Just a side dish
Outspoken Alliance
#1627 - 2012-06-22 20:57:27 UTC
Oisin Sandovar wrote:
Aryth wrote:
CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't.

I think the message is really, file a bug report and don't exploit the bug/design flaw.


Let me tell you what happens when you file a bug report: nothing. Some people abuse the system for a year, and then they deal with it after "too many" people find out about it.

If only a few people know about it and exploit it it is no problem. Once the general population is aware of it, then it becomes a problem and then the exploiters have to find the next bug.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1628 - 2012-06-22 20:57:52 UTC
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:

save the crying for when they don't give stuff back they should have. until then, they probably will return unrelated stuff



Given CCP's past trackrecord of false positives for RMT, and now taking assets that had nothing to do with FW because they were the same asset type, well, I don't have a lot of faith in their ability to do anything of the sort.

The greater issue is. This means combining mechanics in EVE to an unforseen outcome is an exploit. Forget the ISK for a second. This means EVE is not the EVE we thought it was. Read the thread, many people feel this is well within the mechanics. I would say most have voiced their support. If it's such a grey area, that the majority of people believe it to be legit, for CCP to do something like this is chilling indeed.

I respect their right to maintain the sandbox. But my personal opinion is they are not the same company they were. This was well within bounds. That is a sad thing for EVE.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1629 - 2012-06-22 20:57:55 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:
Aryth wrote:
The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly.

Uh, no.

And, just for the record, suggesting that players engage in this sort of behavior is a much more serious EULA violation - one which can get you slapped with a ban, not just a negative wallet. No matter how upset you might be, don't go there, Aryth.


By me suggesting people are far better off trying to game the system quietly than overtly? There were no exploits here as far as I am concerned. CCP romping around siezing assets not even related to this clearly shows they feel differently. Playing the game to the limits of their design is now officially an exploit. This is bigger than this specific case. This is not the CCP of old.


You could try Blizzard or other decently serious companies. Instant perma ban and they send you an email stating whatever further correspondence you will send them will be completely ignored.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Pr1ncess Alia
Doomheim
#1630 - 2012-06-22 20:58:12 UTC
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:
one must ask what a world we have wrought when white hats are shat upon.



or to say

what can men do against such wreckless shatting?
Pr1ncess Alia
Doomheim
#1631 - 2012-06-22 20:59:53 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:

save the crying for when they don't give stuff back they should have. until then, they probably will return unrelated stuff



Given CCP's past trackrecord of false positives for RMT, and now taking assets that had nothing to do with FW because they were the same asset type, well, I don't have a lot of faith in their ability to do anything of the sort.

The greater issue is. This means combining mechanics in EVE to an unforseen outcome is an exploit. Forget the ISK for a second. This means EVE is not the EVE we thought it was. Read the thread, many people feel this is well within the mechanics. I would say most have voiced their support. If it's such a grey area, that the majority of people believe it to be legit, for CCP to do something like this is chilling indeed.

I respect their right to maintain the sandbox. But my personal opinion is they are not the same company they were. This was well within bounds. That is a sad thing for EVE.


dude, you are not the first person to say "dude if you do A, then B, then C, this happens" in a video game and then get smacked down by GMs who say "nope, that wasn't supposed to happen"

not the first in an online game, not the first in eve... it's an exploit. get over it. live and learn.
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#1632 - 2012-06-22 21:00:45 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:
Aryth wrote:
The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly.

Uh, no.

And, just for the record, suggesting that players engage in this sort of behavior is a much more serious EULA violation - one which can get you slapped with a ban, not just a negative wallet. No matter how upset you might be, don't go there, Aryth.


By me suggesting people are far better off trying to game the system quietly than overtly? There were no exploits here as far as I am concerned. CCP romping around siezing assets not even related to this clearly shows they feel differently. Playing the game to the limits of their design is now officially an exploit. This is bigger than this specific case. This is not the CCP of old.


You could try Blizzard or other decently serious companies. Instant perma ban and they send you an email stating whatever further correspondence you will send them will be completely ignored.


Perhaps this is merely the first step in that direction, then. Which, really, makes it the first step in Eve's death as a game. Imagine the future of eve: Carebears mining veldspar, forever.

And nothing else.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1633 - 2012-06-22 21:01:06 UTC
Vincent Athen wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
corestwo wrote:
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
Aryth wrote:
CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't.


You do know you can file a bug report without inflating your wallet right?

If the wallet gets inflated in the process, it's logical to expect CCP will fix the whole problem.

The WHOLE problem, not the whole problem minus your finders fee.


Please justify CCP taking assets that were not earned through this.


CCP Sreegs posted (possible multiple times) that he'd make sure who trespassed (i.e. caught botting etc) would be beaten hard. This is possibly the "beaten hard" example.

Ah, yes, the "manipulate the markets to take advantage of FW" bot. I hear that's a really popular one among ice miners these days.


Hey you have just to watch the fanfest videos to realize that what I say is true.
In CCP Sreegs eyes a botter, a cheater a RMTer and an exploiter are all the same cockroach to crush.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1634 - 2012-06-22 21:01:24 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:
Aryth wrote:
The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly.

Uh, no.

And, just for the record, suggesting that players engage in this sort of behavior is a much more serious EULA violation - one which can get you slapped with a ban, not just a negative wallet. No matter how upset you might be, don't go there, Aryth.


By me suggesting people are far better off trying to game the system quietly than overtly? There were no exploits here as far as I am concerned. CCP romping around siezing assets not even related to this clearly shows they feel differently. Playing the game to the limits of their design is now officially an exploit. This is bigger than this specific case. This is not the CCP of old.


You could try Blizzard or other decently serious companies. Instant perma ban and they send you an email stating whatever further correspondence you will send them will be completely ignored.


The more fair comparison, is to compare the CCP of today, with the CCP of years past. I am not trying to be all conspiracy theory here. But ever since they have gotten into bed with Sony, they seem to kneejerk much more readily to press. It's my belief that they are marketing driven now. A marketing department who doesn't understand the value of the sandbox, and just wants good press. Anything remotely negative gets you pounded. That is their right, but it's not the EVE many of us love.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Oisin Sandovar
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
#1635 - 2012-06-22 21:01:26 UTC
Xython wrote:


If that's what they were doing, we wouldn't be up in arms. They are not just doing that. They are removing assets that the Goon Economics team had prior to this situation that had nothing to do with our demonstration of the poorly designed FW change.

Please understand -- if this was just rolling back the 5 trillion, we'd be fine. It's beyond that.

Of course, there's no way for any of us to know what's really being done as we don't have access to these assets. We only have the word of those reporting on it.

"And the only people I fear are those who never have doubts", Billy Joel, Shades of Grey
Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera
Doomheim
#1636 - 2012-06-22 21:02:30 UTC
I'm a junior software developer and can tell this is not an exploit. It's just a poor game mechanic used in an unpredicted way.
A game as big as EVE Online deserves much more attention when making changes specially regarding ISK input.
I feel sorry for the devs that implemented this, it's a terrible situation.
Rengerel en Distel
#1637 - 2012-06-22 21:02:56 UTC
There really is no sandbox when the company tells you they can do whatever they want to you without even giving you a reason for it. They can close your account, they can take all your assets, they can ban you, they can delete you ... none of that would take place in a sandbox.

Eve is not a sandbox, it's a single shard universe. That is why they can tell you that how you're playing the game is wrong.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Pr1ncess Alia
Doomheim
#1638 - 2012-06-22 21:03:10 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:
Aryth wrote:
The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly.

Uh, no.

And, just for the record, suggesting that players engage in this sort of behavior is a much more serious EULA violation - one which can get you slapped with a ban, not just a negative wallet. No matter how upset you might be, don't go there, Aryth.


By me suggesting people are far better off trying to game the system quietly than overtly? There were no exploits here as far as I am concerned. CCP romping around siezing assets not even related to this clearly shows they feel differently. Playing the game to the limits of their design is now officially an exploit. This is bigger than this specific case. This is not the CCP of old.


You could try Blizzard or other decently serious companies. Instant perma ban and they send you an email stating whatever further correspondence you will send them will be completely ignored.


The more fair comparison, is to compare the CCP of today, with the CCP of years past. I am not trying to be all conspiracy theory here. But ever since they have gotten into bed with Sony, they seem to kneejerk much more readily to press. It's my belief that they are marketing driven now. A marketing department who doesn't understand the value of the sandbox, and just wants good press. Anything remotely negative gets you pounded. That is their right, but it's not the EVE many of us love.


I love eve more with 5000 stabber fleet issue blueprints in my assets window

I love even less when I dont have these things
Fuujin
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1639 - 2012-06-22 21:03:28 UTC
I hear if you fit a destroyer or battlecruiser for maximum dps, you can shoot people and blow them up in high security space before CONCORD gets there.

Why, if enough people do this they could even destroy entire freighters! CCP, please investigate and ban!
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1640 - 2012-06-22 21:05:58 UTC
Time Funnel wrote:
Oisin Sandovar wrote:
Aryth wrote:
CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't.

I think the message is really, file a bug report and don't exploit the bug/design flaw.


Let me tell you what happens when you file a bug report: nothing. Some people abuse the system for a year, and then they deal with it after "too many" people find out about it.

If only a few people know about it and exploit it it is no problem. Once the general population is aware of it, then it becomes a problem and then the exploiters have to find the next bug.

In this case it seems too much was done too fast, and effectively violated the rule of not making it so severe that it needs dealt with. Though really, I can see the reaction being possibly motivated by butthurt. There was a lot of :smug: in the beginning of this thread and a lot of isk worth of LP manipulated out of it. Without knowing how much was made before this was self-reported makes it hard to make any sort of outside judgement IMHO.