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Goons 4x4ing through the Sandbox - Market Manipulation on a Grand Scale

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Arrgthepirate
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1541 - 2012-06-22 20:16:04 UTC
asd3452 wrote:
The Goon ownership of, and profit from, Tech is a well known abuse of game mechanics. I, for one, can not wait until the alliance is dissolved for clear violations of the 'don't be good at Eve' rule CCP is enforcing.


At least we can move back to Poitot when that happens.
Blawrf McTaggart
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1542 - 2012-06-22 20:16:05 UTC
In chaos theory, there's a concept known as sensitive dependence upon initial conditions. Most people know it as the Butterfly Effect.

In EVE, we call it the sandbox.



HAHAHAHA just kidding not actually a sandbox
Xython
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1543 - 2012-06-22 20:16:59 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Ghost Xray wrote:
Aryth wrote:
CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't.


Or rather, if you're going to abuse the system do it at your own risk. Confessing your crimes doesn't seem to get you off the hook.

If your interest is in helping improve the experience in the EvE community, just report the problem without abusing said problem. Then you can pat yourself on the back and maybe earn a little space respect.


This could have been abused quietly for months. It wasn't. Many were already prepping to do it judging from the responses in this thread. The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly.


Not empty quoting. I don't envy CCP, but using this as an excuse to punish Goons economically is just wrong.
Lord Ryan
True Xero
#1544 - 2012-06-22 20:17:42 UTC
Not really sure what happened. But it sounds like CCP robbed the goons. Who would have thought CCP would do something unethical! But than again it's not the first time they punished someone for breaking a rule retoactively. Imagine that in real life. You put on a yellow shirt and leave your house. Some corrupt offical see's you and decides yellow shirts should be illegal, goes home and rights up a new law. Next morning the SS kicks down your and arrest you for breaking the law. Good times!

Do not assume anything above this line was typed by me. Nerf the Truth, it's inconvenient.
Pr1ncess Alia
Doomheim
#1545 - 2012-06-22 20:18:52 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Ghost Xray wrote:
Aryth wrote:
CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't.


Or rather, if you're going to abuse the system do it at your own risk. Confessing your crimes doesn't seem to get you off the hook.

If your interest is in helping improve the experience in the EvE community, just report the problem without abusing said problem. Then you can pat yourself on the back and maybe earn a little space respect.


This could have been abused quietly for months. It wasn't. Many were already prepping to do it judging from the responses in this thread. The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly.


well see, no

They really aren't trying to punish you I'm sure. They are just trying to reverse the problem you simultaneously pointed out and created. If they wanted to punish you they'd ban you.

You came forward, with much hubris, confidence, swagger, gloat and smug. They are fixing the problem as best they can.

Next time? Sure, keep it to yourself. But when they do figure it out, that will be your ban ticket.

Is doing the right thing for the game and community a concept you are incapable of understanding?
Blawrf McTaggart
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1546 - 2012-06-22 20:18:53 UTC
In EVE, the choices you make shape the outcome of events. You could've been a white hat, helped CCP uncover market manipulation that could ruin the game, or you could cackle quietly and run roughshod over the economy.

What matters most is that the experience was emergent, unscripted, because - in the sandbox - all player actions, no matter how subtle or bold, always have an impact.

Imagine what you could become a part of.

hahaha just kidding not a sandbox
Blawrf McTaggart
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1547 - 2012-06-22 20:19:08 UTC
Welcome to EVE Online. The universe is Sreegs'.
Arrgthepirate
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1548 - 2012-06-22 20:19:33 UTC
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
Arrgthepirate wrote:
At the end of the day, CCP only hurts themselves. Knowing what we do now, about CCPs new stance on game mechanics being used, why not let 100 people do it for a week. Create long term real effects. **** the sandbox, the sandbox is dead.


Actually, they only hurt the ppl that used the exploit.

But just think of all the new customers the publicity will bring!


You're ******** if you think these people aren't skilled and dedicated enough to recover.

Next time something exploitable comes around it's going to take CCP way more effort to fix then getting a nice detailed report on how to do it sent to them, with 5 people to ruin. It's going to be exploited by as many people as it can be, for as long as it can be, and no one in their right mind would help CCP.
Blawrf McTaggart
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1549 - 2012-06-22 20:19:44 UTC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08hmqyejCYU i quite like ccp's advertising
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#1550 - 2012-06-22 20:19:50 UTC
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Ghost Xray wrote:
Aryth wrote:
CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't.


Or rather, if you're going to abuse the system do it at your own risk. Confessing your crimes doesn't seem to get you off the hook.

If your interest is in helping improve the experience in the EvE community, just report the problem without abusing said problem. Then you can pat yourself on the back and maybe earn a little space respect.


This could have been abused quietly for months. It wasn't. Many were already prepping to do it judging from the responses in this thread. The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly.


well see, no

They really aren't trying to punish you I'm sure. They are just trying to reverse the problem you simultaneously pointed out and created. If they wanted to punish you they'd ban you.

You came forward, with much hubris, confidence, swagger, gloat and smug. They are fixing the problem as best they can.

Next time? Sure, keep it to yourself. But when they do figure it out, that will be your ban ticket.

Is doing the right thing for the game and community a concept you are incapable of understanding?


How is taking assets purchased legitimately from the market weeks prior to any of this happening acceptable? Because that literally just happened.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Pisov viet
Perkone
Caldari State
#1551 - 2012-06-22 20:22:29 UTC
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
Arrgthepirate wrote:
At the end of the day, CCP only hurts themselves. Knowing what we do now, about CCPs new stance on game mechanics being used, why not let 100 people do it for a week. Create long term real effects. **** the sandbox, the sandbox is dead.


Actually, they only hurt the ppl that used the exploit.

But just think of all the new customers the publicity will bring!

Actually, they hurt every player who would have enjoyed cheap implants and faction ships.

But hey, ******* over your players is a perfectly good way to make them less likely to push the game to it's limits, and will probably save you some money in QA and testing over time. Of course, people dont give a **** about the game anymore, but who cares?
Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#1552 - 2012-06-22 20:22:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Cutter Isaacson
Arrgthepirate wrote:
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
Arrgthepirate wrote:
At the end of the day, CCP only hurts themselves. Knowing what we do now, about CCPs new stance on game mechanics being used, why not let 100 people do it for a week. Create long term real effects. **** the sandbox, the sandbox is dead.


Actually, they only hurt the ppl that used the exploit.

But just think of all the new customers the publicity will bring!


You're ******** if you think these people aren't skilled and dedicated enough to recover.

Next time something exploitable comes around it's going to take CCP way more effort to fix then getting a nice detailed report on how to do it sent to them, with 5 people to ruin. It's going to be exploited by as many people as it can be, for as long as it can be, and no one in their right mind would help CCP.


I'm curious, are you actually angry that some people, who took it upon themselves to knowingly abuse a broken game mechanic to throw a massive section of the market as well as faction warfare in to complete disarray in order to profit personally to the tune of hundreds of billions, now have the threat of rightful retribution hanging over their heads?

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
Lord Ryan
True Xero
#1553 - 2012-06-22 20:24:03 UTC
corestwo wrote:
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Ghost Xray wrote:
Aryth wrote:
CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't.


Or rather, if you're going to abuse the system do it at your own risk. Confessing your crimes doesn't seem to get you off the hook.

If your interest is in helping improve the experience in the EvE community, just report the problem without abusing said problem. Then you can pat yourself on the back and maybe earn a little space respect.


This could have been abused quietly for months. It wasn't. Many were already prepping to do it judging from the responses in this thread. The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly.


well see, no

They really aren't trying to punish you I'm sure. They are just trying to reverse the problem you simultaneously pointed out and created. If they wanted to punish you they'd ban you.

You came forward, with much hubris, confidence, swagger, gloat and smug. They are fixing the problem as best they can.

Next time? Sure, keep it to yourself. But when they do figure it out, that will be your ban ticket.

Is doing the right thing for the game and community a concept you are incapable of understanding?


How is taking assets purchased legitimately from the market weeks prior to any of this happening acceptable? Because that literally just happened.


Did you buy the the assets with RL ISK? If not it's all legit. Who cares if you made billions or trillions off asshatery. CCP has no business robbing you!

Do not assume anything above this line was typed by me. Nerf the Truth, it's inconvenient.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#1554 - 2012-06-22 20:24:14 UTC
Welp, its official. Darius JOHNSON was right at the alliance panel he did. A goon ruined the game.

Just not the goon everyone has been expecting lately.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Pr1ncess Alia
Doomheim
#1555 - 2012-06-22 20:24:30 UTC
Pisov viet wrote:
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
Arrgthepirate wrote:
At the end of the day, CCP only hurts themselves. Knowing what we do now, about CCPs new stance on game mechanics being used, why not let 100 people do it for a week. Create long term real effects. **** the sandbox, the sandbox is dead.


Actually, they only hurt the ppl that used the exploit.

But just think of all the new customers the publicity will bring!

Actually, they hurt every player who would have enjoyed cheap implants and faction ships.

But hey, ******* over your players is a perfectly good way to make them less likely to push the game to it's limits, and will probably save you some money in QA and testing over time. Of course, people dont give a **** about the game anymore, but who cares?


Think I'll put some implants up on the market now that this was all fixed.

You know, to sell to all the people that dont give a crap about the game anymore.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1556 - 2012-06-22 20:25:09 UTC
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
I'm curious, are you actually angry that some people, who took it upon themselves to knowingly abuse a broken game mechanic to throw a massive section of the market as well as faction warfare in to complete disarray in order to profit personally to the tune of hundreds of billions, now have the threat of rightful retribution hanging over their heads?


there is literally nothing wrong with doing what you detailed

there are other things involved here

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Udonor
Doomheim
#1557 - 2012-06-22 20:26:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Udonor
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Cutter Isaacson wrote:

Did I mention insurance fraud? Or Pax Amarria? I do not believe that I did. All I said was that anyone caught knowingly abusing a flaw in the system can, and will, have that profit removed. Whether that is by putting wallets in the negative, or by removing items, such as in this case.

Provide proof.

Those instances are proof that very similar situations in the past were dealt with by changing the mechanic in question, with no repercussions to the people using them to profit. Precedent is set with them. Where is your proof that those cases are wrong?



Actually CCP does take assets for true exploits of a CODING mistake. Like several years ago certain manufacturing processes weren't consuming inputs and you got outputs for free. Heh people got banned for that.

This case is only an exploit in the ethical/philosophical sense. The code did EXACTLY what CCP desired. This was a case where CCP game designers failed to fully consider the consequences of the rules they set forth. Its no different from ship fitting rules that CCP eventually had to nerf in the past. Maybe a little more dramatic than most fitting mistakes (modules, stacking etc) that give someone too much advantage.

I suspect CCP will handle this just like combats involving modules they have had to nerf in in the past. Since no coding issues were involved -- What is done is done.

I mean its not like it alters the GOON pocket book status significantly - from "way too much" to "way way too much" is just abstract numbers. GOONS already have more ISK than they can spend on PLEXing accounts and losing ships for grins. LOL - from what I understand they don't have more capital and Titan class ships simply because someone has to do lots of boring construction labor and hauling. If you got some for reasonable sale conditions the GOONS will buy it when they see it. (Even they aren't into paying foolish prices for stuff in foolish locations...unless they can think of a prank it enables them to pull.) With no game wide victory possible, the main GOON "work" in EVE is merely denying that level of wealth to anyone else.

So expect more GOON "exploits" of this nature as as the super wealthy try to entertain themselves finding humorous weaknesses in rules and ways to point out the problem with trying to maintain an endless game with no victory conditions.
Xython
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1558 - 2012-06-22 20:26:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Xython
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Ghost Xray wrote:
Aryth wrote:
CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't.


Or rather, if you're going to abuse the system do it at your own risk. Confessing your crimes doesn't seem to get you off the hook.

If your interest is in helping improve the experience in the EvE community, just report the problem without abusing said problem. Then you can pat yourself on the back and maybe earn a little space respect.


This could have been abused quietly for months. It wasn't. Many were already prepping to do it judging from the responses in this thread. The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly.


well see, no

They really aren't trying to punish you I'm sure. They are just trying to reverse the problem you simultaneously pointed out and created. If they wanted to punish you they'd ban you.


WE did not create any problems. CCP did.

WE told CCP about it in part by showing just how much it could be abused by the more autistic people in our community so they would realize how badly THEY screwed up. In response, they are punishing us for our good deed.

Read this thread again. Other people knew about this and were doing it, just not to our extent. This would have been abused for months until CCP noticed, if they ever did, without Aryth and the Goon econ team's intervention.

No one in Goonswarm expected this to not be rolled back. Not realistically. We did it for two reasons: To show just had badly CCP messed up (directly to them), and, after having warned CCP ourselves, to give the tinfoil hat wearing ladies and gentlemen on these forums something to spurge about. However, using this as an excuse to punish those who revealed this poorly designed game mechanic is absolutely, unequivocally, wrong.

CCP owes Aryth an apology for overcorrecting and deleting funds not related to this -- I certainly hope they decide to do so shortly. In addition, they need to look through at accounts such as Jade Constantine to make sure all people who did this "exploit" have their funds rolled back.
Time Funnel
Just a side dish
Outspoken Alliance
#1559 - 2012-06-22 20:27:33 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Inspiration wrote:
[quote=Aryth]Remember the deal with moon goo being produced out of nothing (i forgot the details)? The players in corporations involved in that, all got banned!


they did not ban everyone in the corps involved

where did you pull that from?


No in fact I believe this "mechanic" was abused for YEARS before a few players got quietly banned. In the meantime trillions of ISK worth of Ferrogel paid for "Elite PVP".

That is how you do it. Do it on alt accounts, do it and cash out VERY QUIETLY and never look back. Then buy everyone in your alliance a Titan and C-Walk through the south.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#1560 - 2012-06-22 20:28:24 UTC
Udonor wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Cutter Isaacson wrote:

Did I mention insurance fraud? Or Pax Amarria? I do not believe that I did. All I said was that anyone caught knowingly abusing a flaw in the system can, and will, have that profit removed. Whether that is by putting wallets in the negative, or by removing items, such as in this case.

Provide proof.

Those instances are proof that very similar situations in the past were dealt with by changing the mechanic in question, with no repercussions to the people using them to profit. Precedent is set with them. Where is your proof that those cases are wrong?



Actually CCP does take assets for true exploits of a CODING mistake. Like several years ago certain manufacturing processes weren't consuming inputs and you got outputs for free. Heh people got banned for that.

This case is only an exploit in the ethical/philosophical sense. The code did EXACTLY what CCP desired. This was a case where CCP game designers failed to fully consider the consequences of the rules they set forth. Its no different from ship fitting rules that CCP eventually had to nerf in the past. Maybe a little more dramatic than most fitting mistakes (modules, stacking etc) that give someone too much advantage.

I suspect CCP will handle this just like combats involving modules they have had to nerf in in the past. Since no coding issues were involved -- What is done is done.

They apparently handled it by taking everything from the people who were behind it. Including things they didn't even get as part of this.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.