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The Amarr factional war is over.

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Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#161 - 2012-06-21 14:23:50 UTC
Cearain wrote:

Har

Unless you wanted to cash out at tier 2 and you were all set and ready to do it immediately, it was a bad idea to invest lp in those systems.


That was exactly what I was pointing out. LP should be saved until you own enough systems to upgrade them to the tier level required to cash out at the rate you want to cash out. The tier 5 spike only lasted a few hours. But the pilots that prepared ahead of time, saving their LP and stocking up an LP store station with the items they wanted to upgrade into Faction gear, were able to make the most of the opportunity.

Blindly upgrading a system without coordinating that upgrade with the rest of your militia is literally a waste of money. It will get taken away just as fast as you put it in. So work with your faction, work to take systems, when you're all ready pick a day and dump the LP into the upgrades as part of a cooperative effort. Hit the tier level you're aiming for, than cash out. This the way to maximize your profits from your LP, regardless of which faction you belong to.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#162 - 2012-06-21 15:28:11 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:
The game needs competitive balance - competitive balance doesn't neccessarily lead to "fairness" because some people just happen to be better competitors than others. Clearly balancing the combat and conflict systems so they are competitive have always been a design goal in Eve Online - see ship balancing and various changes every aspect of sov and FW warfare.


Good point. In this case, would you say the issues the Amarr are facing is the result of competitive imbalance, or simply not making the most of a set of rules that affect everyone the same?



Amarr has alway had the more difficult missions than minmatar. Yes I do know people who explicitly say they left amarr to run missions easier in other factions and likely many others who won't admit it have over the years. Why choose to fight for a faction where its harder to make isk? It should not be surprising then that the amarr have as far as I know, always had the fewest number of pilots.

They have also had some of the worst rats to deal with as far as plexing. So that has directly effected our ability to plex as effectively as minmatar.

Then there is the lore that paints us as religious fanatics, and the fact that amarr are ugly.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#163 - 2012-06-21 17:01:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Jade Constantine
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:
The game needs competitive balance - competitive balance doesn't neccessarily lead to "fairness" because some people just happen to be better competitors than others. Clearly balancing the combat and conflict systems so they are competitive have always been a design goal in Eve Online - see ship balancing and various changes every aspect of sov and FW warfare.


Good point. In this case, would you say the issues the Amarr are facing is the result of competitive imbalance, or simply not making the most of a set of rules that affect everyone the same?


Bit of both truth be told.

I think its certain the case that the Amarr side has cause for complain on the NPC imbalance in complexes - but the solution to that is going to be engineering how the capture mechanics work (ie making it neccessary to kill all npcs for the timer to run down or something of that kind) just nerfing all so anyone can speed tank is a bit of a silly option. I think the game needs to encourage and give advantage to people putting properly fitted combat ships into plexes.

On the other hand, I think some Amarr players let themselves get convinced that CCP was going to reset the warzone with Inferno and it let them take the foot off the gas when they should have been flying their hearts out.

+ Some of the major Amarrian FW corporations are using pretty terrible strategic tactics even to this day. Fweddit (for example) could be achieving an awful lot more if weren't doing their risk averse hisec basing thing.

But to underline my point - the mechanics need to be competitively balanced by the developers and I have absolutely no time for the excuse "eve isn't fair" if its used to avoid bringing competive balance to critical game mechanics. Thats the equivilent of me inviting you to play white at a chess-set where the knight and two pawns are missing from your side and shrugging and saying "chess isn't fair."

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#164 - 2012-06-21 18:09:05 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
...On the other hand, I think some Amarr players let themselves get convinced that CCP was going to reset the warzone with Inferno and it let them take the foot off the gas when they should have been flying their hearts out....

That is just it, there is no "other hand" .. CCP blessed Amarr with just the one while the Shakorites got the two Big smile

We tried, really tried, stemming the tide and making inroads for three years to no avail. We had some surges in the few months out of the year when we had absolute numbers superiority and when the Caldari task-force came over to showcase the broken standings mechanics.
No matter what we did or much time we spent doing it, our months of work were dismantled in a matter of weeks due to the impossible task of guarding each and every plex against the single frigate ... in the end most Amarr plexers, of which there were not many to begin with, just moved on. I myself went PvP for instance, only plexing when there was a fight on the horizon or when I came across one of the old enemies (/me shakes fist at Sasawong *Grrrrrrrrrr* Lol).

Good post though.

All this talk about orbiting buttons and cashing out at tier2 (equal to double pre-'nerf Amarr' expansion rates I believe) is ridiculous to say the least when any plexing done by a gang can be countered/reversed by a single enemy frigate that is enjoying a near perpetual 75% discount in his store thanks to the mechanics.

@Hans: No one (Pronoun: No person; not a single person) asked for what FW received this time around. While is is true that there has been a strong desire for consequences/meaning/incentives over the years, it has always been asked for in conjunction with a balancing sweep .. hell, most of the "gimme" crowd played second fiddle to "Bring Balance" crowd up until last summer or so .. fits nicely with when CCP starting listening to players again so just rotten luck I reckon Blink
The next 'iteration' will make matters worse, a lot worse. CCP wants to fix a doping problem by allowing everyone to use doping which will inevitably ruin the game just as it does in reality .. at least they have chosen a competent dev (♥ Ytterbium) to handle the data gathering so maybe (slim, but still hope) they'll find something else to sort things until they can get a long term solution in place.

Note: The "Kill Everything!" solution should not be THE solution, but a place holder for a proper redesign of plexes and associated rats in their entirety. Orbiting a timer that is broken half the time was never fun, but replacing it with what is essentially an EHP grind is worse .. making one dependant on the other is just sacrilegious .. unless it is temporary.

PS: Sorry can't resist. "I told you so". Results were predicted by your truly prior to launch, everything from the Caldari re-surgence to the "lone frigs/LP whores everywhere" .. logic and common sense are powerful tools indeed .. now if only I could bottle it and export it to Iceland Cool

PPS: Let me restate my desire for CCP to hire/consult someone with an understanding of human nature, be it a shrink, sociologist or similar. Eve is unique in its scope, a scope that has obviously grown beyond CCP models of behavioural science judging by the gross miscalculations they have pulled the past few years (Biggest Example: NeX).
Shylari Avada
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#165 - 2012-06-21 23:43:46 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
+ Some of the major Amarrian FW corporations are using pretty terrible strategic tactics even to this day. Fweddit (for example) could be achieving an awful lot more if weren't doing their risk averse hisec basing thing.


I'm glad you are so concerned about what we are doing- I imagine we have a much greater view and appreciation for our corp mates- as we have succeeded in doing something you guys have all failed at, in every Militia: and that is bringing new players into Faction Warfare or even Low Sec to begin with. Last time I looked, we had 34 alts in Fweddit and 433 people playing on their mains. Do they have more skillpoints than everyone else in the militia? Nope.

What they do have; is heart, and in this situation that is more than enough.

If you think this is about Killboard Stats Jade; you have not a single clue about the culture of my corp, or what we are trying to accomplish. Just like all your other observations you are simply incapable of realizing that not everyone wants to play the way you do; and running a 500 man corporation is probably more involved and a much large undertaking than having 4-5 corp mates show up in mixed militia fleets looking for fights.
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#166 - 2012-06-22 00:11:30 UTC
behavioural pseudo scientific bullsh!t. You may be able to deduce some random conclusion empirically. The information compiled may be measurable. However, I doubt the results can be replicated (the human state and mind can be erratic). To suggest CCP should rely on that sh!t is ridiculous.

Trial and error. Learn from it and move on. It's going to take sometime to before CCP gets faction warfare just right or never does. I'm not even sure there should be PLEX'ing and territorial what not. Limit that territorial sh!t to missions and Eve back story/RP.

Free war dec is free war dec.

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#167 - 2012-06-22 01:24:46 UTC
Shylari Avada wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:
+ Some of the major Amarrian FW corporations are using pretty terrible strategic tactics even to this day. Fweddit (for example) could be achieving an awful lot more if weren't doing their risk averse hisec basing thing.


I'm glad you are so concerned about what we are doing- I imagine we have a much greater view and appreciation for our corp mates- as we have succeeded in doing something you guys have all failed at, in every Militia: and that is bringing new players into Faction Warfare or even Low Sec to begin with. Last time I looked, we had 34 alts in Fweddit and 433 people playing on their mains. Do they have more skillpoints than everyone else in the militia? Nope.

What they do have; is heart, and in this situation that is more than enough.

If you think this is about Killboard Stats Jade; you have not a single clue about the culture of my corp, or what we are trying to accomplish. Just like all your other observations you are simply incapable of realizing that not everyone wants to play the way you do; and running a 500 man corporation is probably more involved and a much large undertaking than having 4-5 corp mates show up in mixed militia fleets looking for fights.



You seem to have posted some kind of a form letter that had precisely nothing to do with what I said.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
Shylari Avada
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#168 - 2012-06-22 01:51:53 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
You seem to have posted some kind of a form letter that had precisely nothing to do with what I said.


I was just alluding to the simple fact that our average in-house roaming fleet- is larger than your alliance.

Managing it is probably more complex than you would know, and this is before I take into consideration how terrible you are at this game.

Get hazed nerd.

-X.
Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#169 - 2012-06-22 02:32:25 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Cearain wrote:

Har

Unless you wanted to cash out at tier 2 and you were all set and ready to do it immediately, it was a bad idea to invest lp in those systems.


That was exactly what I was pointing out. LP should be saved until you own enough systems to upgrade them to the tier level required to cash out at the rate you want to cash out. The tier 5 spike only lasted a few hours. But the pilots that prepared ahead of time, saving their LP and stocking up an LP store station with the items they wanted to upgrade into Faction gear, were able to make the most of the opportunity.

Blindly upgrading a system without coordinating that upgrade with the rest of your militia is literally a waste of money. It will get taken away just as fast as you put it in. So work with your faction, work to take systems, when you're all ready pick a day and dump the LP into the upgrades as part of a cooperative effort. Hit the tier level you're aiming for, than cash out. This the way to maximize your profits from your LP, regardless of which faction you belong to.

I haven't converted any LP yet for this very reason. My point being that it is NOT practical for me to do so at the current time whilst the minmitar can pretty much do it on a whim!!!
Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#170 - 2012-06-22 02:34:19 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:
The game needs competitive balance - competitive balance doesn't neccessarily lead to "fairness" because some people just happen to be better competitors than others. Clearly balancing the combat and conflict systems so they are competitive have always been a design goal in Eve Online - see ship balancing and various changes every aspect of sov and FW warfare.


Good point. In this case, would you say the issues the Amarr are facing is the result of competitive imbalance, or simply not making the most of a set of rules that affect everyone the same?

I am surprised you even have to ask that after all the posting we have been doing. The rules DO NOT EFFECT everyone the same since the Amarr cannot speed tank major plexes in frigs with 1 week old chars... How many more times do we need to argue this case?
We aren't asking for it to be made EASIER for us, just that everyone else has the SAME difficulty that we do!!!
Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#171 - 2012-06-22 02:54:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Har Harrison
Jade Constantine wrote:
+ Some of the major Amarrian FW corporations are using pretty terrible strategic tactics even to this day. Fweddit (for example) could be achieving an awful lot more if weren't doing their risk averse hisec basing thing.


To focus on Fweddit when saying the Amarr militia needs to do better is a little unfair I think.

Do they need to do better??? Of course they do. So do 7th fleet. So do Wolfbrigade, PIE, The Imperial Fedaykin and any number of other established corps/alliances in the Amarr militia. There isn't one corp/alliance in EvE that couldn't do what they do better to some degree - be it how they PvP, how they do their logistics or how they recruit or some other thing. One could even say the same thing about real life.

The issue Jade alludes to is a temporary one because they have a lot of new players who are new to the game and/or FW and learning. I was on comms with them the other night and the FC was explaining stuff and at one point he commented he had FORGOTTEN what it was like to not know some of those things because it was so long ago. As a corp and alliance they are still building and learning. I would be worried for what happens when they learn the mechanics better and have higher SP - Amarr have shown over and over again how we can punch above our weight and I am sure Fweddit will do the same.

The issue that needs to be addressed here so that Hans can take it up with CCP is "Is FW balanced from a mechanics point of view, such that any imbalance in the war is due to the players, not an outcome of the mechanics?" The argument is strongly being made by Amarr AND Minmitar players that the answer is "No, it is not".
Mra Rednu
Vanishing Point.
#172 - 2012-06-22 08:05:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Mra Rednu
The issue has been brought to the attention of CCP right from the first week of FW way back when it was obvious that on one side a t1 frigate can run plex's but the other side needed to use more resources to run them, basically saying that Amarr needed twice the numbers to do the same amount of plexing, not a lot of balance there ?

Lets not kid anyone here, CCP knew about this inbalance from day 1 and have not had any interest in putting it right, now it seems a few are taking an interest in it but they should of fixed this issue before moving ahead with any other changes, I wouldn't go as far as a rollback but there are scores of gunless frigates taking all size plex's and bombers running missions where we can't do either, risk/reward has been completely forgotten about in this case as there is no risk for them as they just run.

But also enough with the negative vibes, Amarr militia is far from finished plus we got Fweedit on board which I am loving, good guys on the whole who are learning very fast, we just need to be allowed to fight with some sort of balanced playing field.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#173 - 2012-06-22 16:13:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Har Harrison wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Cearain wrote:

Har

Unless you wanted to cash out at tier 2 and you were all set and ready to do it immediately, it was a bad idea to invest lp in those systems.


That was exactly what I was pointing out. LP should be saved until you own enough systems to upgrade them to the tier level required to cash out at the rate you want to cash out. The tier 5 spike only lasted a few hours. But the pilots that prepared ahead of time, saving their LP and stocking up an LP store station with the items they wanted to upgrade into Faction gear, were able to make the most of the opportunity.

Blindly upgrading a system without coordinating that upgrade with the rest of your militia is literally a waste of money. It will get taken away just as fast as you put it in. So work with your faction, work to take systems, when you're all ready pick a day and dump the LP into the upgrades as part of a cooperative effort. Hit the tier level you're aiming for, than cash out. This the way to maximize your profits from your LP, regardless of which faction you belong to.

I haven't converted any LP yet for this very reason. My point being that it is NOT practical for me to do so at the current time whilst the minmitar can pretty much do it on a whim!!!



It appears someone from goons upgraded amarr to tier 2. Why did they bother blowing stuff up for amarr lp at all - let alone enough to upgrade our tier?

-edit I was originally afraid people in our own militia were stupid enough to do that.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#174 - 2012-06-22 16:15:11 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Har Harrison wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Cearain wrote:

Har

Unless you wanted to cash out at tier 2 and you were all set and ready to do it immediately, it was a bad idea to invest lp in those systems.


That was exactly what I was pointing out. LP should be saved until you own enough systems to upgrade them to the tier level required to cash out at the rate you want to cash out. The tier 5 spike only lasted a few hours. But the pilots that prepared ahead of time, saving their LP and stocking up an LP store station with the items they wanted to upgrade into Faction gear, were able to make the most of the opportunity.

Blindly upgrading a system without coordinating that upgrade with the rest of your militia is literally a waste of money. It will get taken away just as fast as you put it in. So work with your faction, work to take systems, when you're all ready pick a day and dump the LP into the upgrades as part of a cooperative effort. Hit the tier level you're aiming for, than cash out. This the way to maximize your profits from your LP, regardless of which faction you belong to.

I haven't converted any LP yet for this very reason. My point being that it is NOT practical for me to do so at the current time whilst the minmitar can pretty much do it on a whim!!!



It appears someone from goons upgraded amarr to tier 2. Why did they bother blowing stuff up for amarr lp at all - let alone enough to upgrade our tier?

Because they could and for some lulz. They also wanted to see what would happen without them propping it up.
Jones Bones
Battle Toad Brigade
Ribbit.
#175 - 2012-06-22 16:21:34 UTC
I haven't lost a single fleet fight to Minnies since I joined.

I'll let them have the LP. I'll take the holding the pilot seat of the **** train.
Salicaz
Verrimus Caelum
#176 - 2012-06-22 16:22:20 UTC
Har Harrison wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:
The game needs competitive balance - competitive balance doesn't neccessarily lead to "fairness" because some people just happen to be better competitors than others. Clearly balancing the combat and conflict systems so they are competitive have always been a design goal in Eve Online - see ship balancing and various changes every aspect of sov and FW warfare.


Good point. In this case, would you say the issues the Amarr are facing is the result of competitive imbalance, or simply not making the most of a set of rules that affect everyone the same?

I am surprised you even have to ask that after all the posting we have been doing. The rules DO NOT EFFECT everyone the same since the Amarr cannot speed tank major plexes in frigs with 1 week old chars... How many more times do we need to argue this case?
We aren't asking for it to be made EASIER for us, just that everyone else has the SAME difficulty that we do!!!


I admire you Har for banging this drum but I'm afraid Hans is a biased **** and CCP don't give a ****.
Duke Dantez
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#177 - 2012-06-22 18:33:05 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:


All this talk about orbiting buttons and cashing out at tier2 (equal to double pre-'nerf Amarr' expansion rates I believe) is ridiculous to say the least when any plexing done by a gang can be countered/reversed by a single enemy frigate that is enjoying a near perpetual 75% discount in his store thanks to the mechanics.



Ha! Thanks to game mechanics??? We enjoy the 75% discount because of the hard work we put into plexing before the patch. Not because of game mechanics. You sound so pathetic when you say stuff like this. You honestly think it is the game mechanics fault for why you guys lost so many systems before the patch? ....You are the problem with the old guard Amarr.

While the Amarr chose to wait to the to the last minute, The Minmatar chose to plex non-stop for a solid 2 months. Both sides knew what the patch was bringing and yet you guys chose the wrong stratagy and now blame it on the mechanics. Pathetic.

It has been almost a month since the patch came out and today the amarr have more systems than they did on patch day. You are slowly crawling back despite what you call "hideously imbalanced" game mechanics. You gain a few systems and you lose a few systems but over the time span of a month you have a net gain of systems.

I agree that the NPC's need a bit more balancing. I agree that bugs need to be fixed. But these are not the excuses you are looking for to explain your tier 1 position. Honestly they are very minor problems and when they are fixed what will be your excuse then?Roll
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#178 - 2012-06-22 20:06:15 UTC
Har Harrison wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:
The game needs competitive balance - competitive balance doesn't neccessarily lead to "fairness" because some people just happen to be better competitors than others. Clearly balancing the combat and conflict systems so they are competitive have always been a design goal in Eve Online - see ship balancing and various changes every aspect of sov and FW warfare.


Good point. In this case, would you say the issues the Amarr are facing is the result of competitive imbalance, or simply not making the most of a set of rules that affect everyone the same?

I am surprised you even have to ask that after all the posting we have been doing. The rules DO NOT EFFECT everyone the same since the Amarr cannot speed tank major plexes in frigs with 1 week old chars... How many more times do we need to argue this case?
We aren't asking for it to be made EASIER for us, just that everyone else has the SAME difficulty that we do!!!


Har, I was asking Jade that question, wanting to know Jade's personal perspective. It wasn't a generalized inquiry to everyone in the thread that responded.

I *completely* agree with you that the NPC imbalance is an issue, I can't wait for the day when NO faction can speed tank plexes with day old alts.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Jones Bones
Battle Toad Brigade
Ribbit.
#179 - 2012-06-22 20:07:13 UTC
Ex-Amarr are seriously the biggest group of crybabies. Why are you posting on a forum that no longer concerns you? Go post on the RP forums baddies.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#180 - 2012-06-22 21:46:12 UTC
Mra Rednu wrote:
The issue has been brought to the attention of CCP right from the first week of FW way back when it was obvious that on one side a t1 frigate can run plex's but the other side needed to use more resources to run them, basically saying that Amarr needed twice the numbers to do the same amount of plexing, not a lot of balance there ?

Lets not kid anyone here, CCP knew about this inbalance from day 1 and have not had any interest in putting it right, now it seems a few are taking an interest in it but they should of fixed this issue before moving ahead with any other changes, I wouldn't go as far as a rollback but there are scores of gunless frigates taking all size plex's and bombers running missions where we can't do either, risk/reward has been completely forgotten about in this case as there is no risk for them as they just run.

But also enough with the negative vibes, Amarr militia is far from finished plus we got Fweedit on board which I am loving, good guys on the whole who are learning very fast, we just need to be allowed to fight with some sort of balanced playing field.

Quoted for truth and posterity.