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Warfare & Tactics

 
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FW - stop speed tanking by requiring all plex npc's be killed
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Axl Borlara
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2012-06-22 16:54:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Axl Borlara
Does anyone have any good reasons why this shouldn't be implemented straight away?

Preferably as a first step rather than the only change. (npc ewar balancing seems to be the main other issue)

"but I'll need to be PVE fit"
No you won't. You may not be able to cap that major plex by yourself, but you shouldn't be able to.
PVP fitted ships of the appropriate type and number should be able to kill the npc's.

Edit: I should also add that this should be a fairly quick change for CCP to implement - unless they can explain otherwise?
Yes, there are lots more things to fix, but most of them require fairly extensive changes.
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Of Essence
#2 - 2012-06-22 16:56:23 UTC
The list that would go a long way to making plex farmers (read: those who run plexes and just run away from the first hint of pvp) less effective, in order of importance.

1) Kill all rats - at least then a t1 frigate without guns can't be as effective. Farmers need to choose between higher dps/range ships (which are generally larger and easier to catch) or small ships with close range dps that will not farm as effectively. EDIT: The rats do not replace the timer, they are in addition to it.

2) Timers count backwards to starting state (NOT capture) when no-one is on a plex button. For example, say farmer starts running a plex, and 4 minutes later I get to his system (after being notified) and chase him out. He runs away. While I am chasing him around, his work is undone which means that he can't just return to his plex with his previous work still there and resume farming, while he runs he loses his work without forcing the pvper to sit on the button and cry himself to sleep out of boredom.

3) Notifications when someone is in a plex
Bezerk'ah Vulkan
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#3 - 2012-06-22 18:25:13 UTC
+1
Tikktokk Tokkzikk
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#4 - 2012-06-22 18:37:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Tikktokk Tokkzikk
Because that would be like all other PvE activites (read: boring) and would force people to use battlecruisers/whatever for majors.

I think it would be much better to make the defencive plexing timer four times short (five minutes for a major), give a standing reward for defencive plexing and despawn plexes once successfully defencive plexed. It would hopefully make it worth it to defencive and thus force the offencive plexers to PvP if they want the LP.
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Of Essence
#5 - 2012-06-22 18:39:46 UTC  |  Edited by: chatgris
Tikktokk Tokkzikk wrote:
would force people to use battlecruisers/whatever for majors.


*gasp*

Tikktokk Tokkzikk wrote:

I think it would be much better to make the defencive plexing timer four times short (five minutes for a major), give a standing reward for defencive plexing and despawn plexes once successfully defencive plexed. It would hopefully make it worth it to defencive and thus force the offencive plexers to PvP if they want the LP.


The whole point of the timer is to give the other side a chance to form up and come fight you. Shorter timers is a bad thing.
Tikktokk Tokkzikk
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#6 - 2012-06-22 18:52:36 UTC
chatgris wrote:
Tikktokk Tokkzikk wrote:
would force people to use battlecruisers/whatever for majors.


*gasp*

Tikktokk Tokkzikk wrote:

I think it would be much better to make the defencive plexing timer four times short (five minutes for a major), give a standing reward for defencive plexing and despawn plexes once successfully defencive plexed. It would hopefully make it worth it to defencive and thus force the offencive plexers to PvP if they want the LP.


The whole point of the timer is to give the other side a chance to form up and come fight you. Shorter timers is a bad thing.


It would still be 20 minutes for the offencive plexer.
My point is that at the moment, I see very few war targets actually bothering to defencive plex. It is easy to just safe up, wait a few minutes till the war target leave, and continue to farm.

And I am against forcing people into anything above t1 frigates because FW is supposed to be new player friendly. It is already few T1 frigates around beside the random newbie and farmer. If we forced people to fly battlecruisers, I would think we would see even less frigates.

PS: I am talking about few frigates for new players to engage in PvP with.
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Of Essence
#7 - 2012-06-22 18:56:18 UTC
Tikktokk Tokkzikk wrote:

It would still be 20 minutes for the offencive plexer.
My point is that at the moment, I see very few war targets actually bothering to defencive plex. It is easy to just safe up, wait a few minutes till the war target leave, and continue to farm.


Because shortening the timer changes the reason people plex (e.g. LP)

Tikktokk Tokkzikk wrote:

And I am against forcing people into anything above t1 frigates because FW is supposed to be new player friendly. It is already few T1 frigates around beside the random newbie and farmer. If we forced people to fly battlecruisers, I would think we would see even less frigates.

PS: I am talking about few frigates for new players to engage in PvP with.


ShockedShockedShocked

I don't know what to say. Like

a) I practically live in my thrasher nowadays, and most of what I shoot at are other frigs and dessies
b) Nothing is stopping you from going into a larger plex with a thrasher
c) There are PLENTY of minors for new guys, and if they want a bigger challenge 2-3 dessies can run larger plexes with ease.
Tikktokk Tokkzikk
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#8 - 2012-06-22 19:08:55 UTC
chatgris wrote:
Tikktokk Tokkzikk wrote:

It would still be 20 minutes for the offencive plexer.
My point is that at the moment, I see very few war targets actually bothering to defencive plex. It is easy to just safe up, wait a few minutes till the war target leave, and continue to farm.


Because shortening the timer changes the reason people plex (e.g. LP)

Tikktokk Tokkzikk wrote:

And I am against forcing people into anything above t1 frigates because FW is supposed to be new player friendly. It is already few T1 frigates around beside the random newbie and farmer. If we forced people to fly battlecruisers, I would think we would see even less frigates.

PS: I am talking about few frigates for new players to engage in PvP with.


ShockedShockedShocked

I don't know what to say. Like

a) I practically live in my thrasher nowadays, and most of what I shoot at are other frigs and dessies
b) Nothing is stopping you from going into a larger plex with a thrasher
c) There are PLENTY of minors for new guys, and if they want a bigger challenge 2-3 dessies can run larger plexes with ease.


Yes, but currently you don't have to kill the rats to do a major.
If everyone that want to do majors have to choose between being in a frigate fleet (and share the LP) or solo in a battlecruiser, I doubt they'll choose the frigate fleet.

And a destroyer isn't a very good target for newbies in frigates.
I think this is what I see the most (in order):
Faction frigates
Destroyers
faction cruisers and above

Not very newbie friendly now, and when faction cruisers and above move to the top of the list, will be even less newbie friendly.

Newbie friendly PvP faction warfare > PvE faction warfare.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#9 - 2012-06-22 19:45:14 UTC
only if killing the npcs doesn't lower your faction standing toward that enemy faction. Not everyone wants to trash their faction standings forever.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Of Essence
#10 - 2012-06-22 19:49:40 UTC
Batelle wrote:
only if killing the npcs doesn't lower your faction standing toward that enemy faction. Not everyone wants to trash their faction standings forever.


Newflash: Doing plexes will raise your militia corp standing. Every point you get will give you a promotion with a big standing boost to the friendly factions, and a big hit to the enemy factions.
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Of Essence
#11 - 2012-06-22 19:50:44 UTC  |  Edited by: chatgris
Tikktokk Tokkzikk wrote:
And a destroyer isn't a very good target for newbies in frigates.


Tell that to fweddit.

I rarely drop to this level but in general please: get a clue. Plexes are not meant to be pve farm machines, they are intended to promote pvp. If you're just sitting solo in a major not killing rats there's no way you're going to stick around for the pvp that might come into you.
Joanna Ramirez
Intaki Militia
#12 - 2012-06-22 20:04:03 UTC
chatgris wrote:
Plexes are not meant to be pve farm machines, they are intended to promote pvp.


Says person who abandons his team on first opportunity for the side that pays more money....
Tikktokk Tokkzikk
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#13 - 2012-06-22 20:22:27 UTC
chatgris wrote:
Tikktokk Tokkzikk wrote:
And a destroyer isn't a very good target for newbies in frigates.


Tell that to fweddit.

I rarely drop to this level but in general please: get a clue. Plexes are not meant to be pve farm machines, they are intended to promote pvp. If you're just sitting solo in a major not killing rats there's no way you're going to stick around for the pvp that might come into you.


I usually play stupid and warp to the sun for the actual fight.
If that dosen't work, I open another plex and wait outside the gate till I see something appear on shortscan and either fight on the plex or inside.

So don't worry, I am not a farmer that safe up whenever a war target enters my plex (my killboard can confirm this).
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Of Essence
#14 - 2012-06-22 20:40:51 UTC
Tikktokk Tokkzikk wrote:
chatgris wrote:
Tikktokk Tokkzikk wrote:
And a destroyer isn't a very good target for newbies in frigates.


Tell that to fweddit.

I rarely drop to this level but in general please: get a clue. Plexes are not meant to be pve farm machines, they are intended to promote pvp. If you're just sitting solo in a major not killing rats there's no way you're going to stick around for the pvp that might come into you.


I usually play stupid and warp to the sun for the actual fight.
If that dosen't work, I open another plex and wait outside the gate till I see something appear on shortscan and either fight on the plex or inside.

So don't worry, I am not a farmer that safe up whenever a war target enters my plex (my killboard can confirm this).


Oh yes, a design for FW plexes that generally involves NOT fighting in them. GENIOUS!
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#15 - 2012-06-22 21:42:15 UTC
@Chatgris: Welcome to the " balance FW for fucks sake" fold. Pleased to meet you, make your self comfortable Smile

@Tikktokk: Either you give LP for defensive plexing, or you accelerate the timer (or aturmate it) but not both. No way, no how. Would be abused to high heaven same as everything else (ref: LoL Goons).

Requiring NPCs to be killed is the fast/easy way fix but it will merely be replacing one time-sink for another (EHP grind) so it should never be more than a placeholder/bandaid.
We need some sort of delaying mechanic to manage system captures, since it cannot be PvP based (blue ball enemy for victory!) it has to be PvE .. any solution has to be found within that restriction unless someone comes up with an out-of-this-world idea of making PvP the metric with no glaring exploitable holes that is.

Blatant self promotion: Read my initial post in the F&I thread to see what I think would solve the issue.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#16 - 2012-06-22 21:59:22 UTC
How about "Military Upgrades?" You choose upgrades for the NPC's in the complexes. Upgrades would cost LP. They would go away with system capture. The upgrades would need to be expensive with the caveat that militia in the lower war control tiers get a discount.
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#17 - 2012-06-22 22:23:30 UTC
CCP does not want to end alt plexing. It creates more paid accounts for them.

It is all about irl money.