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Goons 4x4ing through the Sandbox - Market Manipulation on a Grand Scale

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Imawuss
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1341 - 2012-06-22 18:27:06 UTC
People who think this was not an exploit or at the very least a bug are kidding themselves. If left in-game it would be game breaking. With the amount the goons took from this (i'm actually not sure on this but from hearsay i think a lot) it may already be game breaking though we will have to wait and see if CCP takes no retroactive steps.

To be fair though should anyone receive any punishment? I think not, just based on how EVE represents itself and the activities it promotes, but anyone thinking an unlimited isk faucet is not a bug/ exploit or game breaking is kidding themselves. The isk made must be taken back, otherwise the inflation that will incur will ruin this game for new players.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#1342 - 2012-06-22 18:27:42 UTC
corestwo wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Its not an exploit til CCP declares it so, and you can't be punished for it if its not an exploit. After they declare it so(I would consider Sreegs' post a declaration that it is so) any further use of said exploit because punishable.

Funny, I read sreegs' post as "We're investigating and deciding whether we will let this stand or not, and in the meantime don't do it anymore."

The 'don't do it anymore' is the basic format that has been used through the years to let people know something is an exploit.

Is this hard to understand?

It WAS NOT and exploit, til he said that.

Ofc, CCP has been known to play underhanded on things like this before, wouldn't surprise me if they did it again. Especially since Sreegs is a former goon CEO who kinda has to be seen making an anti-goon stand or take huge flak for cheating to help his alliance, even tho he is not stupid enough to risk his job doing so.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Nathan Ernaga
Applesauce Brigade
#1343 - 2012-06-22 18:27:45 UTC
Something for a pore soul, good sires ?
PleeeaaseSad

Who plays the game wins.

If you have in your hands the key to the fulfillment of your life's ambition and superiority over most, if you are aware that there is an absolute power on hand (just over the basic moral principles) how far are you willing to go and through what you are willing to tread?
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#1344 - 2012-06-22 18:28:23 UTC
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
edit: can you get your A team guys out here? this B team stuff is just getting lazy

ahaha the "I'm losing so I'm going to go the insult route to win" strategy.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1345 - 2012-06-22 18:29:36 UTC
Imawuss wrote:
People who think this was not an exploit or at the very least a bug are kidding themselves. If left in-game it would be game breaking. With the amount the goons took from this (i'm actually not sure on this but from hearsay i think a lot) it may already be game breaking though we will have to wait and see if CCP takes no retroactive steps.

To be fair though should anyone receive any punishment? I think not, just based on how EVE represents itself and the activities it promotes, but anyone thinking an unlimited isk faucet is not a bug/ exploit or game breaking is kidding themselves. The isk made must be taken back, otherwise the inflation that will incur will ruin this game for new players.


This was deflationary. ISK was removed from the system.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#1346 - 2012-06-22 18:29:52 UTC
Imawuss wrote:
People who think this was not an exploit or at the very least a bug are kidding themselves. If left in-game it would be game breaking. With the amount the goons took from this (i'm actually not sure on this but from hearsay i think a lot) it may already be game breaking though we will have to wait and see if CCP takes no retroactive steps.

To be fair though should anyone receive any punishment? I think not, just based on how EVE represents itself and the activities it promotes, but anyone thinking an unlimited isk faucet is not a bug/ exploit or game breaking is kidding themselves. The isk made must be taken back, otherwise the inflation that will incur will ruin this game for new players.

iirc, there is around 300 Trillion isk in EVE circulation. This was 5 trillion, or just over 1% of the total value of the game.

That should give some perspective on whether or not this is significant.

Oh, and there are people with considerably more than 1% of the total isk in EVE in their wallet, like Chribba. Is he breaking the game?

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Pr1ncess Alia
Doomheim
#1347 - 2012-06-22 18:30:06 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
Dramaticus wrote:
Item's CCP calculated value rises due to market forces: Working as intended
LP is offered for faction warfare kills: Working as intended
LP is redeemed for items: Working as intended

ehlp


goons go in, LP comes out. its easy

obviously not an exploit

I wouldn't be an exploit if you had done it either. This seems to be the point your tinfoil hat is hiding from you.


Well no. When I blow up an enemy BC and get LP for market value for his items that isn't an exploit.

However gaming the market to inflate values of items, then blowing up ships I filled full of the items I just inflated the values of to produce ungodly LP payouts.... that might be an exploit.

This seems to be the point your goonwashed brain is hiding from you.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1348 - 2012-06-22 18:31:32 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
corestwo wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Its not an exploit til CCP declares it so, and you can't be punished for it if its not an exploit. After they declare it so(I would consider Sreegs' post a declaration that it is so) any further use of said exploit because punishable.

Funny, I read sreegs' post as "We're investigating and deciding whether we will let this stand or not, and in the meantime don't do it anymore."

The 'don't do it anymore' is the basic format that has been used through the years to let people know something is an exploit.

Is this hard to understand?

It WAS NOT and exploit, til he said that.

Ofc, CCP has been known to play underhanded on things like this before, wouldn't surprise me if they did it again. Especially since Sreegs is a former goon CEO who kinda has to be seen making an anti-goon stand or take huge flak for cheating to help his alliance, even tho he is not stupid enough to risk his job doing so.


I don't think you understand Sreegs. There is no one quicker to f*** goons than Sreegs. He has also personally f'ed me in the past. Just sayin.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1349 - 2012-06-22 18:32:33 UTC
Imawuss wrote:
People who think this was not an exploit or at the very least a bug are kidding themselves. If left in-game it would be game breaking. With the amount the goons took from this (i'm actually not sure on this but from hearsay i think a lot) it may already be game breaking though we will have to wait and see if CCP takes no retroactive steps.

To be fair though should anyone receive any punishment? I think not, just based on how EVE represents itself and the activities it promotes, but anyone thinking an unlimited isk faucet is not a bug/ exploit or game breaking is kidding themselves. The isk made must be taken back, otherwise the inflation that will incur will ruin this game for new players.


Truthfully, 5T really isn't all that huge a number when talking about the volume of ISK that moves around in the EVE economy every day.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Pr1ncess Alia
Doomheim
#1350 - 2012-06-22 18:32:39 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Imawuss wrote:
People who think this was not an exploit or at the very least a bug are kidding themselves. If left in-game it would be game breaking. With the amount the goons took from this (i'm actually not sure on this but from hearsay i think a lot) it may already be game breaking though we will have to wait and see if CCP takes no retroactive steps.

To be fair though should anyone receive any punishment? I think not, just based on how EVE represents itself and the activities it promotes, but anyone thinking an unlimited isk faucet is not a bug/ exploit or game breaking is kidding themselves. The isk made must be taken back, otherwise the inflation that will incur will ruin this game for new players.

iirc, there is around 300 Trillion isk in EVE circulation. This was 5 trillion, or just over 1% of the total value of the game.

That should give some perspective on whether or not this is significant.

Oh, and there are people with considerably more than 1% of the total isk in EVE in their wallet, like Chribba. Is he breaking the game?


No. Because Chribba didn't exploit the game to get his.

How about the scope of the LP/LP items gained vs the current market supply. The impact on hundreds if not thousands of missioners LP who actually played the game the way it's intended. Might that be worth discussing?

Or are they to be ignored because they aren't cool and edgy trying to figure out ways to violate the EULA everyday?
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#1351 - 2012-06-22 18:33:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
Dramaticus wrote:
Item's CCP calculated value rises due to market forces: Working as intended
LP is offered for faction warfare kills: Working as intended
LP is redeemed for items: Working as intended

ehlp


goons go in, LP comes out. its easy

obviously not an exploit

I wouldn't be an exploit if you had done it either. This seems to be the point your tinfoil hat is hiding from you.


Well no. When I blow up an enemy BC and get LP for market value for his items that isn't an exploit.

However gaming the market to inflate values of items, then blowing up ships I filled full of the items I just inflated the values of to produce ungodly LP payouts.... that might be an exploit.

This seems to be the point your goonwashed brain is hiding from you.

You know how CCP says they don't protect people from scams in Eve?

Yeah, by not listening to warnings of tying the market value in ISK to LP payout, CCP refused to protect themselves from being scammed.

Long live the kings of the scam!

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Kazini Jax
Starlight Operations
#1352 - 2012-06-22 18:33:21 UTC
Well, that's it for me. You are a joke, CCP. There really is no point in playing a game that can be won by the person who has the most money to buy PLEX and turn it into ISK (I might as well play RL). But when incompetent programming and logic causes **** like this to repeatedly happen, **** it. No point.

Oh, and CCP, quit calling your joke a 'sandbox'. It MAY be a sandbox relative to other games out there, but a TRUE sandbox is a game where ONLY the physics of the universe is programmed into it. So to call this game a sandbox is a serious fail.. much like your programming!

Bye New Eden
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#1353 - 2012-06-22 18:34:05 UTC
Imawuss wrote:
People who think this was not an exploit or at the very least a bug are kidding themselves. If left in-game it would be game breaking.

The conclusion of this is correct, but I'm not sure you can really call it a bug or exploit. I think the best term to use is an exploitable design, which means that it's a bad design which CCP must and will change.

Imawuss wrote:
The isk made must be taken back, otherwise the inflation that will incur will ruin this game for new players.

No isk was made, in fact isk was sunk.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1354 - 2012-06-22 18:34:25 UTC
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
Dramaticus wrote:
Item's CCP calculated value rises due to market forces: Working as intended
LP is offered for faction warfare kills: Working as intended
LP is redeemed for items: Working as intended

ehlp


goons go in, LP comes out. its easy

obviously not an exploit

I wouldn't be an exploit if you had done it either. This seems to be the point your tinfoil hat is hiding from you.


Well no. When I blow up an enemy BC and get LP for market value for his items that isn't an exploit.

However gaming the market to inflate values of items, then blowing up ships I filled full of the items I just inflated the values of to produce ungodly LP payouts.... that might be an exploit.

This seems to be the point your goonwashed brain is hiding from you.


To my knowledge gaming the market to inflate the value of specific items isn't an exploit either... nor is blowing up your own ships.

This isn't as cut and dried as it may seem at first blush.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
No More Heroes
Boomer Humor
Snuffed Out
#1355 - 2012-06-22 18:35:52 UTC
Aryth wrote:
This was deflationary. ISK was removed from the system.


And this is the end of the matter. The 68 pages of 'mad' right here fall into 2 categories: the usual goon haters and those who wish they got a piece of the action.

.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#1356 - 2012-06-22 18:36:55 UTC
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
Or are they to be ignored because they aren't cool and edgy trying to figure out ways to violate the EULA everyday?

The EULA wasn't violated.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Draydin Warsong
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1357 - 2012-06-22 18:37:12 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Kethe wrote:
It clearly states in the EULA abusing such loopholes will result in your character being banned


where


C. Compliance with Rules of Conduct

You agree to observe and abide by the Rules of Conduct as may be amended by CCP from time to time. The current version of the Rules of Conduct may be viewed at http://www.eveonline.com/pnp/terms.asp, and are incorporated in the EULA by reference.

Which leads to Rule 23 of the rules of conduct:

You may not exploit any bug in EVE Online to gain an unfair advantage over other players. You may not communicate the existence of any exploitable bug to others directly or through a public forum. Bugs should be reported through the bug reporting tool on our website.

Was curious so I looked it up. Your welcome. Lol

While the question is if CCP will enforce it or not, if they did this is what they would do it on.

Also this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_bug
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#1358 - 2012-06-22 18:37:34 UTC
Aryth wrote:
I don't think you understand Sreegs. There is no one quicker to f*** goons than Sreegs. He has also personally f'ed me in the past. Just sayin.

I don't know much about him, other than a bit of his history. I just didn't wanna look like an ******* by accusing him of going f***goons if he was still of relatively friendly terms Blink

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1359 - 2012-06-22 18:37:42 UTC
Kazini Jax wrote:
Well, that's it for me. You are a joke, CCP. There really is no point in playing a game that can be won by the person who has the most money to buy PLEX and turn it into ISK (I might as well play RL). But when incompetent programming and logic causes **** like this to repeatedly happen, **** it. No point.

Oh, and CCP, quit calling your joke a 'sandbox'. It MAY be a sandbox relative to other games out there, but a TRUE sandbox is a game where ONLY the physics of the universe is programmed into it. So to call this game a sandbox is a serious fail.. much like your programming!

Bye New Eden


Waves a cheerful farewell.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Pr1ncess Alia
Doomheim
#1360 - 2012-06-22 18:38:16 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
Dramaticus wrote:
Item's CCP calculated value rises due to market forces: Working as intended
LP is offered for faction warfare kills: Working as intended
LP is redeemed for items: Working as intended

ehlp


goons go in, LP comes out. its easy

obviously not an exploit

I wouldn't be an exploit if you had done it either. This seems to be the point your tinfoil hat is hiding from you.


Well no. When I blow up an enemy BC and get LP for market value for his items that isn't an exploit.

However gaming the market to inflate values of items, then blowing up ships I filled full of the items I just inflated the values of to produce ungodly LP payouts.... that might be an exploit.

This seems to be the point your goonwashed brain is hiding from you.


To my knowledge gaming the market to inflate the value of specific items isn't an exploit either... nor is blowing up your own ships.

This isn't as cut and dried as it may seem at first blush.


No, but when you put the two together all of a sudden you have CCP releasing security statements.

You can't really spin the illegitimacy by pointing out the simple seemingly legit stepstaken to get there.

No one issues security statements when I shoot a blue or kill a war target because I was playing the game, not finding exploits.