These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Goons 4x4ing through the Sandbox - Market Manipulation on a Grand Scale

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#1261 - 2012-06-22 17:20:25 UTC
Oisin Sandovar wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
Betrinna Cantis wrote:
The funniest thing to see here would to have ALL of GSF punished for the actions of the few... Happens in the Military all the time. Then mayby some of you would start policing yourelves... then again mayby not.

Uh...this is a game.

Do you "police" yourself when you play "Uno"?

What if your first hand is all Draw Fours and Skips? Do you call misdeal out of fairness to your competition?

What if this happens a hundred thousand times in a row. Were you an exploiter then?

Only if i stacked the deck.

In this case, you were not the dealer. =)

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Pisov viet
Perkone
Caldari State
#1262 - 2012-06-22 17:21:21 UTC
Ghost Xray wrote:
Nirnaeth Ornoediad wrote:
Ghost Xray wrote:
[quote=Pisov viet][quote=Khergit Deserters]

And, can anyone in the CFC think objectively about this? These 5 who did this didn't just get one over on all non-CFC people. They gained an advantage over everyone else in EvE. Unless you are getting a cut. I'm not space rich enough to think 5trillion isk is just a drop in the bucket.


This wasn't a bug: it was just bad design. There's a world of difference. It was working exactly as CCP designed, even though their players (customers) warned them about tying anything to market prices. Heck, everyone's been joking for years about various killboards that show some odd, no-name module at 1B ISK because the killboard pulled the 1 Sell Order from the Region in which the kill took place, and that Sell Order was a scam attempt.

I'm fine with these few players having a significant advantage over me and everyone else in EVE. They did it through the legitimate use of game mechanics (i.e. not python injection, or glitching Grids, etc.). Not everyone can win at EVE, but even when you lose it can still be a fun game.


So, if CCP had designed it to work like this, then why did they patch anything? If nothing wrong was done, then why would the OP report it.

Because they realized their design was flawed and was producing aweful results. Does that mean they should punish players who played according to that design?
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#1263 - 2012-06-22 17:23:36 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
I bolded your poorly-considered confessions for you.

It sort of looks like a whole faction was complaining and you admitted to making billions off their woes to me, Hans.

And it also looks like you're glad the Goons were manipulating the system, because now you seem to think you're justified in ignoring your oppositions' complaints.

[sarcasm]Higher standards could not be had![/sarcasm]


You're absolutely right, other Minmatar certainly cashed out quite nicely during this spike, I however missed the boat. Last Saturday was the first time I'd sat down to grind LP, and ironically missed the big window LolAlso, the Amarr have outright said they are plexing using Minmatar alts, so my enemies cashed out during this spike as well.

As for my opposition's complaints, they were never ignored. The two biggest warnings I gave CCP prior to Inferno release were to not go with full station lockout, and to not have extreme LP scaling. These are also the two biggest concerns that my enemy's had, and continue to have. At the recent summit, I once again asked for station docking to be moved to a system upgrade, not a permanent feature. With the Goon exploit coming to light, now the developers can see what I warned them about - that maybe this extreme LP scaling might have unforseen consequences.

What I've ignored since inferno's release, is the idea that Faction Warfare is somehow "destroyed" and that the Amarr situation is "hopeless". Everyone who argued against dockblocking (including myself) said it would kill the activity level throughout the warzone. The opposite has occured. I have a responsibility to argue for changes based on the *consequences* observed on Tranquility, and not to stick to rhetoric that crumbles under current events suggesting otherwise. Many Amarr claimed station lockout would make seizing systems impossible, that also turned out not to be true.

It is only the doomsday predictions that have been thoroughly debunked since Inferno's release that I have ignored, I continue to pass on legitimate feedback to CCP on a regular basis. I am relieved that the market manipulation has ended not because my enemies have *nothing* legitimate to complain about, I am relieved that there is now a much more accurate picture of the war being documented so that everyone, friend and foe alike, can see whether or not things are as "hopeless" as some Amarr claim.

If the mechanics are balanced enough to allow for a comeback despite the lack of Goon warzone control backing, we're in good shape. If the war continues to stagnate and remains one-sided, than my warnings to CCP about imbalance will be vindicated and maybe they'll listen to me in the future on these issues instead of saying "EVE isn't fair" and releasing the system as they saw fit.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#1264 - 2012-06-22 17:24:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Zim
Ghost Xray wrote:
So, if CCP had designed it to work like this, then why did they patch anything? If nothing wrong was done, then why would the OP report it.

They patched it because it was demonstrated, in no uncertain terms, why the design should be changed.

Just like the anomalies were changed, just like the titans were initially changed (pity they screwed that up), and just like the titans were changed again, and just like CCP decided to add alchemy to alleviate the R64 design limitation, and just like CCP are going to let neut logis be shootable now (or in future, whichever). etc etc etc.

Edit: Just like Pax Amarria was changed when we told CCP about that loophole as well, because that was setting an artificial peg on nocx prices.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Oisin Sandovar
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
#1265 - 2012-06-22 17:27:27 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:

In this case, you were not the dealer. =)

Never said I was the dealer though. :)

"And the only people I fear are those who never have doubts", Billy Joel, Shades of Grey
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1266 - 2012-06-22 17:29:31 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

I think CCP are annoyed because:

1) It puts CCP Sreegs in 2 bad lights.

2) CCP invested sensible time / coding / money into FW, a feature long left to rot part of low sec systems left long time to rot. These 5 guys basically p!ssed on *CCP's* sand this time.

I would not be shocked if there was a faction in CCP that was angry about this, but I think everyone understands this was a seriously exploitable mechanism and it was going to be found and used. There's no question about that: people spotted it before it went in. So at the end of the day I don't think anyone will really be angry at the people involved because it was found: it was always going to be found. Better now than in a month or two.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Karash Amerius
The Seven Shadows
Scotch And Tea.
#1267 - 2012-06-22 17:29:33 UTC
Best thing about this thread is Jade jumping on the grandiose bandwagon because he just can't help himself.

Karash Amerius Operative, Sutoka
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#1268 - 2012-06-22 17:29:33 UTC
Betrinna Cantis wrote:
The funniest thing to see here would to have ALL of GSF punished for the actions of the few... Happens in the Military all the time. Then mayby some of you would start policing yourelves... then again mayby not.

That might make sense.

If it were not for the fact that punishing people who did nothing in a system that they are paying you to use will only drive away innocent, paying customers.

CCP not doing anything about something is one thing, them actively pushing a 9000 person group for the actions of 5 of them will just cause them to go out of business. After all, if that happens, what happens when someone joins your corp, and then violates the rules? Will you happily accept punishment for actions you did not know about, by someone you cannot control?

Or would you, like any sane person, say 'F this, I'm cancelling my account and CCP gets no more of my money?'

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Pr1ncess Alia
Doomheim
#1269 - 2012-06-22 17:30:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Pr1ncess Alia
darmwand wrote:

Well, in this particulary the graffity is cool. I feel a little sorry for you if you can't appreciate stuff like that. Just try being a little less serious and you'll have much more fun Smile


Certainly a matter of opinion. I can appreciate getting the jump on someones fleet in game and destroying them. I can appreciate complex espionage and scams.

I can't really appreciate this, it didn't take any imagination... they knew it, or something similar, was going to work ahead of time as they point out. All they did was alter a regional average price for an item, then blow that item up to trigger an LP payout. It's not rocket surgery, so I can't appreciate the ingenuity...

it just seems on the level of ppl that could duplicate minerals at a POS. It only hurts the game, I'm not a fan, sorry.

Darth Gustav wrote:

Just how is CCP going to reverse this? To eliminate the ill-gotten ISK all the customers of the goons will also have to forfeit their ill-gotten gear. That's most of Eve, by now. CCP is really going to take away the Republic Fleet Warp Disruptors from everybody who bought one at a slightly lower-than-expected rate?

I think not.


oh geez, that's a hard one.

-assets left to abuser obtained by abuse removed
-isk gained by selling assets abuser obtained by abuse removed
-active sell orders of assets abuser obtained by abuse removed
-large obvious movement of assets obtained by abuse to other player(s) triggers repeat of the above to those player(s)
-let everything else work itself out

Betrinna Cantis wrote:
The funniest thing to see here would to have ALL of GSF punished for the actions of the few... Happens in the Military all the time. Then mayby some of you would start policing yourelves... then again mayby not.


Donnie, please Straight
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#1270 - 2012-06-22 17:33:21 UTC  |  Edited by: corestwo
Zedrik Cayne wrote:
I'm waiting for the graphs.

CCP Diagoras, the graphs please :)

Stacked bar graphs showing where LP is being gained and where LP is being spent over a three month period. Graphed daily for all four factions should show these shenannigans at a glance.

Any chance, lord of the graphs, that we may see these?

As well as line graphs of the prices of the items in question (As they should be easily discernable from the previous graphs)

I'm having troubles explaining this to some of my eve co workers and others.

And for our goon overlords, can we please get your pretty graphs? I'm sure that combined with the graphs Diagoras may grant us, a view into just how bad this could have gotten if this had gone wide?


The fact that Diagoras is on vacation currently is probably part of the reason why we don't think CCP actually noticed our activities until we told them. I mean, Sreegs said they noticed market manipulations, but that was only part of it... Had Diagoras been around and active on twitter, I'm sure someone would have asked something like "so how much LP have FW pilots earned?" and his eyes would have popped out of his head when he did the DB query. Big smile

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Dramaticus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1271 - 2012-06-22 17:33:33 UTC
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
[quote=darmwand]
it just seems on the level of ppl that could duplicate minerals at a POS. It only hurts the game, I'm not a fan, sorry.


Except its nothing like that?

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#1272 - 2012-06-22 17:34:40 UTC
Karash Amerius wrote:
Best thing about this thread is Jade jumping on the grandiose bandwagon because he just can't help himself.


I don't think the irony of him thanking them for helping him earn billions and congratulating them on their genius discovery is missed on anyone, either! Lol

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Pr1ncess Alia
Doomheim
#1273 - 2012-06-22 17:35:21 UTC
Dramaticus wrote:
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
[quote=darmwand]
it just seems on the level of ppl that could duplicate minerals at a POS. It only hurts the game, I'm not a fan, sorry.


Except its nothing like that?


Except where it is, yeah.
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#1274 - 2012-06-22 17:36:04 UTC  |  Edited by: corestwo
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:

it just seems on the level of ppl that could duplicate minerals at a POS. It only hurts the game, I'm not a fan, sorry.


Yes, "taking the existing game mechanics to a significant but legitimate extreme" and "abusing a bug that allows your towers to continue to run and produce ferrogel even when inputs are no longer present" are totally the same thing.

Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Karash Amerius wrote:
Best thing about this thread is Jade jumping on the grandiose bandwagon because he just can't help himself.


I don't think the irony of him thanking them for helping him earn billions and congratulating them on their genius discovery is missed on anyone, either! Lol

The fact that both Jade and Marlona Sky congratulated us and even said its probably not an exploit is pretty amusing, yes.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Dramaticus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1275 - 2012-06-22 17:36:55 UTC
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
Dramaticus wrote:
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
[quote=darmwand]
it just seems on the level of ppl that could duplicate minerals at a POS. It only hurts the game, I'm not a fan, sorry.


Except its nothing like that?


Except where it is, yeah.


[citation needed]

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them
No More Heroes
Boomer Humor
Snuffed Out
#1276 - 2012-06-22 17:37:22 UTC  |  Edited by: No More Heroes
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#1277 - 2012-06-22 17:37:42 UTC
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
it just seems on the level of ppl that could duplicate minerals at a POS. It only hurts the game, I'm not a fan, sorry.

One is a bug, one is a badly designed game mechanic which CCP has been warned about even prior to release.

Kind of like tracking titans, neut alts, POS bowling, sticking iterons full of stuff in a carrier to haul tons of **** prior to JFs being introduced, etc etc etc.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1278 - 2012-06-22 17:37:55 UTC
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
Dramaticus wrote:
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
[quote=darmwand]
it just seems on the level of ppl that could duplicate minerals at a POS. It only hurts the game, I'm not a fan, sorry.


Except its nothing like that?


Except where it is, yeah.

it is also like a genocide where it is like one

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1279 - 2012-06-22 17:38:13 UTC
it is also like a tree where it is like one

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#1280 - 2012-06-22 17:38:20 UTC  |  Edited by: corestwo
No More Heroes wrote:
Gee there goes Eve Online in the news again. I wonder why.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/06/22/eve-players-make-over-175000-blowing-up-their-own-spaceships/

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/06/22/eve-players-abuse-faction-warfare-to-produce-trillions-of-isk/


The considerably different tone in these articles is amusing. Guess which of these authors does not like goons, and which either likes us or is ambivalent? Blink

(hint the answer is that I'm pretty sure Brendan Drain was the guy who mittens ripped a new one over his sensationalist "reporting" of the fanfest fiasco)

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo