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Goons 4x4ing through the Sandbox - Market Manipulation on a Grand Scale

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Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#1241 - 2012-06-22 17:02:21 UTC
darmwand wrote:
It's somewhat disturbing to see all those cries from people who want to have the transactions reversed. I for one am not a big Goon fan but I have to say this whole thing is pretty damn impressive, well done. And I don't see what everybody is so upset about. Does it in any way stop you from running your little missions, incursions and what not? If it doesn't, then why do you care?

They care because it was done by goons, and/or they're pissed off that they weren't able to move on it quickly enough.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Werst Dendenahzees
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1242 - 2012-06-22 17:04:26 UTC
Come on, it's not even 5 months of technetium income.
Pr1ncess Alia
Doomheim
#1243 - 2012-06-22 17:05:27 UTC
darmwand wrote:
It's somewhat disturbing to see all those cries from people who want to have the transactions reversed. I for one am not a big Goon fan but I have to say this whole thing is pretty damn impressive, well done. And I don't see what everybody is so upset about. Does it in any way stop you from running your little missions, incursions and what not? If it doesn't, then why do you care?

The only thing that bugs me is that I didn't think of it first, my Merlin could use an oil change.


No. It doesn't stop anyone from running missions. It just has the potential to negate the entire foundation of FW (The LP store). No biggie.

I mean, that's only if your crazy like me and think giving people a virtual market corner via supply saturation for exploiting a game mechanic is bad.

(I know I know, it's not an exploit. And CCP is not going to do anything because they already said that... oh wait)

Impressive? I'm as impressed as I am when I see graffiti on that impossible highway overpass on teh way to work. I'm impressed that someone actually did it. On the other hand I'm wondering "who could be so dumb and have so much time on their hands to do something so wrecklessly stupid and destructive?"... and not to be rude but you don't want to know what I think of lemmings that look at the graffiti and say "oh wow, I wish I had done that, it's so cool"
Goremageddon Box
Guerrilla Flotilla
#1244 - 2012-06-22 17:06:09 UTC
personally dont see too much wrong. if we can run with something for awhile before raising flags, that should just make ccp aware of what flags they need to be aware of being raised.

did they collapse the economy and make everyone quit playing eve?


nah, some people found lp gear for cheaper.


some people might have lost out but how much was gained?

but id like to see a well thought out dev response
Pr1ncess Alia
Doomheim
#1245 - 2012-06-22 17:06:31 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
darmwand wrote:
It's somewhat disturbing to see all those cries from people who want to have the transactions reversed. I for one am not a big Goon fan but I have to say this whole thing is pretty damn impressive, well done. And I don't see what everybody is so upset about. Does it in any way stop you from running your little missions, incursions and what not? If it doesn't, then why do you care?

They care because it was done by goons, and/or they're pissed off that they weren't able to move on it quickly enough.


Yeah, we're all just jelly.

Gonna suck when they take all their ill gotten stuff and dont give back the stuff they blew up to get it though. Seriously, taht sucks.
Zedrik Cayne
Standards and Practices
#1246 - 2012-06-22 17:10:53 UTC
I'm waiting for the graphs.

CCP Diagoras, the graphs please :)

Stacked bar graphs showing where LP is being gained and where LP is being spent over a three month period. Graphed daily for all four factions should show these shenannigans at a glance.

Any chance, lord of the graphs, that we may see these?

As well as line graphs of the prices of the items in question (As they should be easily discernable from the previous graphs)

I'm having troubles explaining this to some of my eve co workers and others.

And for our goon overlords, can we please get your pretty graphs? I'm sure that combined with the graphs Diagoras may grant us, a view into just how bad this could have gotten if this had gone wide?

I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon
Betrinna Cantis
#1247 - 2012-06-22 17:11:57 UTC
The funniest thing to see here would to have ALL of GSF punished for the actions of the few... Happens in the Military all the time. Then mayby some of you would start policing yourelves... then again mayby not.

Alts have been changed to protect the Innocent. You may have mistaken me for someone who cares.....
Goremageddon Box
Guerrilla Flotilla
#1248 - 2012-06-22 17:13:31 UTC
Zedrik Cayne wrote:
I'm waiting for the graphs.

CCP Diagoras, the graphs please :)

Stacked bar graphs showing where LP is being gained and where LP is being spent over a three month period. Graphed daily for all four factions should show these shenannigans at a glance.

Any chance, lord of the graphs, that we may see these?

As well as line graphs of the prices of the items in question (As they should be easily discernable from the previous graphs)

I'm having troubles explaining this to some of my eve co workers and others.

And for our goon overlords, can we please get your pretty graphs? I'm sure that combined with the graphs Diagoras may grant us, a view into just how bad this could have gotten if this had gone wide?


i love graphs. and charts. OMG AND PIE CHARTS.



mmmmmm...... pie charts....
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse
#1249 - 2012-06-22 17:14:38 UTC
darmwand wrote:
It's somewhat disturbing to see all those cries from people who want to have the transactions reversed. I for one am not a big Goon fan but I have to say this whole thing is pretty damn impressive, well done. And I don't see what everybody is so upset about. Does it in any way stop you from running your little missions, incursions and what not? If it doesn't, then why do you care?

The only thing that bugs me is that I didn't think of it first, my Merlin could use an oil change.


I'd agree with this if Goons weren't paying people they don't know to shoot people they don't know for doing something that won't matter in Barges.
Werst Dendenahzees
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1250 - 2012-06-22 17:14:56 UTC
Betrinna Cantis wrote:
The funniest thing to see here would to have ALL of GSF punished for the actions of the few... Happens in the Military all the time. Then mayby some of you would start policing yourelves... then again mayby not.


That would make sense if the general membership was somehow able to convince the 5 richest of us to stop their secret plots to become even richer and generate endless forum porn.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#1251 - 2012-06-22 17:15:35 UTC
Betrinna Cantis wrote:
The funniest thing to see here would to have ALL of GSF punished for the actions of the few... Happens in the Military all the time. Then mayby some of you would start policing yourelves... then again mayby not.

Uh...this is a game.

Do you "police" yourself when you play "Uno"?

What if your first hand is all Draw Fours and Skips? Do you call misdeal out of fairness to your competition?

What if this happens a hundred thousand times in a row. Were you an exploiter then?

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Pr1ncess Alia
Doomheim
#1252 - 2012-06-22 17:15:56 UTC
Nirnaeth Ornoediad wrote:
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:

Saying it isn't an exploit over and over doesn't mean much. The only ppl that ultimately get to decide what is and isn't an exploit are the ppl who own and run the game. In light of what CCP has already said on the topic.....

It sounds less like intelligent rationalization by game savy meta gamers and more like children clapping to save tinkerbell. As if they keep on clapping and saying it wasn't an exploit CCP isn't going to take action to reverse the damage (take their stufs, which they've already eluded to in this thread) and leave them high, dry and looking like fools.


Fine, whatever. I'll agree that CCP has de facto deux ex machina power over their game, especially given how the license technically only gives players one right: to pay CCP money.

I disagree that stating "this is not an exploit" is akin to clapping for Tinkerbell (though congrats on a decent allegory). "Exploit" in the context of this game infers an actual "defect", which in the context of EVE means "not working the way CCP designed it." CCP did design it to work this way, and just ignored people (customers) who questioned this design.


Then why in CCPs statement did they refer to it as abuse?
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#1253 - 2012-06-22 17:16:56 UTC
Gul'gotha Derv'ash wrote:
You are missing the key factor for the people who got the POS bug ban... they weren't goons. This kind of behavior seems to be applauded by CCP... as long as you are a goon of course.

Nope, the reason they got the POS bug ban was ... because that was a bug.

Ghost Xray wrote:
Pisov viet wrote:
It wasnt a bug.

Then there would be nothing to tell CCP Punkturis about, yet:

Tech isn't a bug, so what's there to tell CCP about?
Neut logis isn't a bug, so what's there to tell CCP about?
Tracking titans isn't a bug, so what's there to tell CCP about?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Oisin Sandovar
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
#1254 - 2012-06-22 17:16:58 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Betrinna Cantis wrote:
The funniest thing to see here would to have ALL of GSF punished for the actions of the few... Happens in the Military all the time. Then mayby some of you would start policing yourelves... then again mayby not.

Uh...this is a game.

Do you "police" yourself when you play "Uno"?

What if your first hand is all Draw Fours and Skips? Do you call misdeal out of fairness to your competition?

What if this happens a hundred thousand times in a row. Were you an exploiter then?

Only if i stacked the deck.

"And the only people I fear are those who never have doubts", Billy Joel, Shades of Grey
Gul'gotha Derv'ash
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1255 - 2012-06-22 17:17:47 UTC
Betrinna Cantis wrote:
The funniest thing to see here would to have ALL of GSF punished for the actions of the few... Happens in the Military all the time. Then mayby some of you would start policing yourelves... then again mayby not.



No, they would throw another temper tantrum "Burn Jita" type event that really didn't accomplish anything, but show how big of babies they really are.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#1256 - 2012-06-22 17:18:16 UTC
Skydell wrote:
I'd agree with this if Goons weren't paying people they don't know to shoot people they don't know for doing something that won't matter in Barges.

I'd agree with this if goons weren't doing something completely unrelated to what I'm commenting on.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#1257 - 2012-06-22 17:18:40 UTC
Oisin Sandovar wrote:
Only if i stacked the deck.

Good thing CCP did the stacking, then.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1258 - 2012-06-22 17:19:50 UTC
Ghost Xray wrote:
Nirnaeth Ornoediad wrote:
Ghost Xray wrote:
[quote=Pisov viet][quote=Khergit Deserters]

And, can anyone in the CFC think objectively about this? These 5 who did this didn't just get one over on all non-CFC people. They gained an advantage over everyone else in EvE. Unless you are getting a cut. I'm not space rich enough to think 5trillion isk is just a drop in the bucket.


This wasn't a bug: it was just bad design. There's a world of difference. It was working exactly as CCP designed, even though their players (customers) warned them about tying anything to market prices. Heck, everyone's been joking for years about various killboards that show some odd, no-name module at 1B ISK because the killboard pulled the 1 Sell Order from the Region in which the kill took place, and that Sell Order was a scam attempt.

I'm fine with these few players having a significant advantage over me and everyone else in EVE. They did it through the legitimate use of game mechanics (i.e. not python injection, or glitching Grids, etc.). Not everyone can win at EVE, but even when you lose it can still be a fun game.


So, if CCP had designed it to work like this, then why did they patch anything? If nothing wrong was done, then why would the OP report it.

Everything that happened with the discovery to the reporting to CCP to CCP pushing out fixes and now investigation "abuses" (as they put it) all points to one logical conclusion. It wasn't what was intended. The OP knew it, CCP knew it, and according to you, a lot of people knew it. But It doesn't matter if you want to classify it as a bug/error/bad design/bad implementation. It wasn't how the devs intended for it to be used. Or rather, they didn't expect anyone to abuse the system. They may have counted on the fact that if anyone tried to, they'd just ban them for breaking the EULA, though I doubt they'd be Twisted enough to set people up like that. But who knows, "EvE isn't fair" so it's all fair game, amirite?


This is speculation, as I don't know CCP's thoughts. But I believe it was because they didn't understand the scope of the issue. It's one thing to know something can be theoretically gamed. Maybe that might even seem desirable. It's quite another to know you can throw massive resources at it and result in something far beyond what they may have intended. Maybe light gaming was intended, I don't know.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
darmwand
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#1259 - 2012-06-22 17:19:58 UTC
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
On the other hand I'm wondering "who could be so dumb and have so much time on their hands to do something so wrecklessly stupid and destructive?"


Because we all know that it would be better if they'd just sat in front of their TV instead? I think the "time invested" argument is highly pointless, in the end it's about doing fun things with your spare time and if that's fun to them, let them.

I see your point about devaluating your LP though, but since it was a one time thing (at least from whay I understand) that shouldn't have any long term effects.

Quote:
... and not to be rude but you don't want to know what I think of lemmings that look at the graffiti and say "oh wow, I wish I had done that, it's so cool"


Well, in this particulary the graffity is cool. I feel a little sorry for you if you can't appreciate stuff like that. Just try being a little less serious and you'll have much more fun Smile

"The pen is mightier than the sword if the sword is very short, and the pen is very sharp."
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#1260 - 2012-06-22 17:20:19 UTC
Gul'gotha Derv'ash wrote:
No, they would throw another temper tantrum "Burn Jita" type event that really didn't accomplish anything, but show how big of babies they really are.

It accomplished nothing, except stop literally all trade in Jita.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat