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Goons 4x4ing through the Sandbox - Market Manipulation on a Grand Scale

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ashley Eoner
#1221 - 2012-06-22 16:30:28 UTC
Dramaticus wrote:
Better Than You wrote:
Aryth wrote:
This is always the case of bank robbers. Others are claiming they knew, yet they did not break the law. We did. We had a goal, we met the goal, we turned ourselves in before were caught. Bank robbers. Of course it's self serving. But I don't see anyone else lining up with detailed explanations to the police on how to rob a bank either, or proof it works. We robbed, notified the police. Done.

The bank robbery we did entailed a great deal of preparation, thought, spreadsheets, and capital. No one else moved as fast, or had the resources.


Just because you turn yourself in before you are caught, does not mean you are innocent.


The only thing I am guilty of is playing a poorly coded game.

The only thing I'm guilty of is opening a poorly locked door...
Pisov viet
Perkone
Caldari State
#1222 - 2012-06-22 16:30:43 UTC
Ghost Xray wrote:
Pisov viet wrote:
Khergit Deserters wrote:
Not an exploit?
23.You may not exploit any bug in EVE Online to gain an unfair advantage over other players. You may not communicate the existence of any exploitable bug to others directly or through a public forum. Bugs should be reported through the bug reporting tool on our website.

What do you think, CCP?

It wasnt a bug.


Then there would be nothing to tell CCP Punkturis about, yet:

Aryth wrote:


No. I purposely told CCP, frantically you could say. Where I screwed up is, well I am bad at twitter as I only have twitter to ask Diagoras for stats. I didn't realize it's public if I sent something to Punkturis. Whoops.


And, can anyone in the CFC think objectively about this? These 5 who did this didn't just get one over on all non-CFC people. They gained an advantage over everyone else in EvE. Unless you are getting a cut. I'm not space rich enough to think 5trillion isk is just a drop in the bucket.

No, they ****** over everyone who make money by selling items you can get from the minmatar FW LP store. Anyone that dont sell one of these and instead buy them will actually enjoy a slightly lower price for a long time.
Megos Adriano
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1223 - 2012-06-22 16:30:54 UTC
When I realized I could speedtank Amarr plexes, I set to farming LP. and kept a careful eye on 3 market hubs.

When we were at Tier4, I cashed in most of my LP, around 1 mil. I never expected Tier5, but when I saw it, I cashed in newly farmed LP (another 1 mil LP).

I have to thank Goonswarm for making me rich. Although it's not trillions, I'm secure in the knowledge that I won't be banned or have assets seized by the devs.

o/ Stay classy guys!

And boom goes the dynamite.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1224 - 2012-06-22 16:30:58 UTC
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Ituhata Saken wrote:
Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,


At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. Don’t be That Guy.



By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.


When you find the game broken in a way that allows you to exploit it for unintended personal gain, CCP probably won't see things the way you do.

Read the post above. It might be me, but I dont see anything along the lines of "we are so glad certain individuals pointed this out for us and we'll see they keep their just rewards"

You tried to screw CCP and a good it of their customers. I'm not sure they are going to be as grateful as some ppl are hoping. In fact, if and when CCP reverses the damage done all Goonswarm would have done is destroy massive amounts of THEIR OWN assets for... no reason.


One could even say some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made? I can't be sure, it's not like a CCP Dev came out and said that for me.

Yeah, wow, gg. You blew all your own stuff up when you could have just filed a bug report.


It is fairly common practice in the business world to instead of prosecuting a hacker that finds a vulnerability in your network, you instead hire him. Usually that decision is based on whether the hacker showed any restraint, and whether they voluntarily shared the information in detail with the company (in other words just how much did they **** the company off with the nature of the hack).

I can see penalties being relatively light, and I think they should be. They actually kept this from becoming a huge issue in EVE. Harsh penalties in this case would only ensure that the next time a problem like this is discovered that they will keep the information to themselves, which helps no one.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Nirnaeth Ornoediad
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1225 - 2012-06-22 16:36:23 UTC
Ghost Xray wrote:
[quote=Pisov viet][quote=Khergit Deserters]

And, can anyone in the CFC think objectively about this? These 5 who did this didn't just get one over on all non-CFC people. They gained an advantage over everyone else in EvE. Unless you are getting a cut. I'm not space rich enough to think 5trillion isk is just a drop in the bucket.


This wasn't a bug: it was just bad design. There's a world of difference. It was working exactly as CCP designed, even though their players (customers) warned them about tying anything to market prices. Heck, everyone's been joking for years about various killboards that show some odd, no-name module at 1B ISK because the killboard pulled the 1 Sell Order from the Region in which the kill took place, and that Sell Order was a scam attempt.

I'm fine with these few players having a significant advantage over me and everyone else in EVE. They did it through the legitimate use of game mechanics (i.e. not python injection, or glitching Grids, etc.). Not everyone can win at EVE, but even when you lose it can still be a fun game.

Fix POSes.  Every player should want one (even if all players can't have one).
Pr1ncess Alia
Doomheim
#1226 - 2012-06-22 16:38:05 UTC
Nirnaeth Ornoediad wrote:
Vile rat wrote:
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Ituhata Saken wrote:
Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,


At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. Don’t be That Guy.



By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.


When you find the game broken in a way that allows you to exploit it for unintended personal gain, CCP probably won't see things the way you do.

Read the post above. It might be me, but I dont see anything along the lines of "we are so glad certain individuals pointed this out for us and we'll see they keep their just rewards"

You tried to screw CCP and a good it of their customers. I'm not sure they are going to be as grateful as some ppl are hoping. In fact, if and when CCP reverses the damage done all Goonswarm would have done is destroy massive amounts of THEIR OWN assets for... no reason.


One could even say some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made? I can't be sure, it's not like a CCP Dev came out and said that for me.

Yeah, wow, gg. You blew all your own stuff up when you could have just filed a bug report.


It wasn't a bug. It was intentionally coded market mechanics that are ******* stupid, they were told it was stupid when it first launched, then they felt comfortable with it entering the game anyways.


I totally agree here. Saying "this is an exploit" would be the same as CFC crying a year ago that "PL is exploiting Titan tracking." The mechanic sucked, and we complained about it, but it wasn't an exploit.

CCP: if you create a sandbox where you know players manipulate markets all the time, don't have a faucet tied to in-game market prices. You have some really, really smart people at this company. Your players are smarter. Look at the contract manipulation Hatchery pulled off last year. If you want to play with markets, be prepared to play with the big boys.

Look at the bright side, though: if left alone, there's just a huge glut of LP sitting out there. Fortunately, LP is just one form of currency in EVE, isn't terribly liquid (it can't be transferred between toons without cashing out into real-world goods), and having Faction items cheaper for the foreseeable future will offset some of the inflation we've seen recently, and which CCP econ guys are worried about.


Saying it isn't an exploit over and over doesn't mean much. The only ppl that ultimately get to decide what is and isn't an exploit are the ppl who own and run the game. In light of what CCP has already said on the topic.....

It sounds less like intelligent rationalization by game savy meta gamers and more like children clapping to save tinkerbell. As if they keep on clapping and saying it wasn't an exploit CCP isn't going to take action to reverse the damage (take their stufs, which they've already eluded to in this thread) and leave them high, dry and looking like fools.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#1227 - 2012-06-22 16:39:33 UTC
[i wrote:
Darth Gustav]It might be early, but hell, give it a think. Do you really want your FW represntative on the CSM fighting agains[/i]t you after he admittedly completely neglected the respective complaints of one entire faction for his own personal gain and profit?

For that matter, "Impeach Hans!"


LOL and where, pray tell, was this "confession" ?

I know how easy it is to see how hard I've worked to screw my enemies - maybe it was the part where I repeatedly said dockblocking could kill small gang PvP.? Or the part where I said the LP scaling was too extreme. Maybe it was the part where I said publicly that CCP needed to reset the warzone to undo my faction's plexing efforts pre-inferno so everyone started out on level ground? Perhaps you're referring to the fact that I asked CCP about making dockblocking a system upgrade rather than a fixed penalty (giving the Amarr more places they could dock).

And OH YES. The profit I've made. Are you referring to the roughly 80,000 LP I've made since Inferno, due to the fact I'm usually out defensive plexing in fleets (which pays nothing)? Or do you mean the half-dozen 5000 LP implants I bought last Saturday after missing the tier 5 spike cause I had no LP saved up? Yeah, man, I scored so big there CCP should investigate me for abuse of power! Twisted

I appreciate the morning entertainment, you conspiracy nuts are always so much fun.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Xutech
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1228 - 2012-06-22 16:40:42 UTC
CCP has a history of shooting the messenger. They don't want to hear the message but they always act surprised when the disaster occurs anyway.

I know several messengers: they all have this in common. They attempted to help and got stabbed in the back.
Goremageddon Box
Guerrilla Flotilla
#1229 - 2012-06-22 16:41:16 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Ituhata Saken wrote:
Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,


At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. Don’t be That Guy.



By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.


When you find the game broken in a way that allows you to exploit it for unintended personal gain, CCP probably won't see things the way you do.

Read the post above. It might be me, but I dont see anything along the lines of "we are so glad certain individuals pointed this out for us and we'll see they keep their just rewards"

You tried to screw CCP and a good it of their customers. I'm not sure they are going to be as grateful as some ppl are hoping. In fact, if and when CCP reverses the damage done all Goonswarm would have done is destroy massive amounts of THEIR OWN assets for... no reason.


One could even say some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made? I can't be sure, it's not like a CCP Dev came out and said that for me.

Yeah, wow, gg. You blew all your own stuff up when you could have just filed a bug report.


It is fairly common practice in the business world to instead of prosecuting a hacker that finds a vulnerability in your network, you instead hire him. Usually that decision is based on whether the hacker showed any restraint, and whether they voluntarily shared the information in detail with the company (in other words just how much did they **** the company off with the nature of the hack).

I can see penalties being relatively light, and I think they should be. They actually kept this from becoming a huge issue in EVE. Harsh penalties in this case would only ensure that the next time a problem like this is discovered that they will keep the information to themselves, which helps no one.



well thought out. liked.
Doctor Benway Kado
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1230 - 2012-06-22 16:45:06 UTC
Is it weird that I'm not decrying CCP for something they might do? That I actually feel a bit of trust that CCP Skreeg is ethical and professional enough that he's not going to make some gut instinct decision? If he deems it an exploit, it's an exploit. If not, it's not.

I don't think we need to call for firings and mass bannings and server resets just yet. Y'all are getting a little bit quick on the "Damn you, CCP" wagon.
Werst Dendenahzees
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1231 - 2012-06-22 16:47:33 UTC
What the **** are we going to do with those trillions anyways? Buy 50 useless titans?
Ocih
Space Mermaids
#1232 - 2012-06-22 16:49:06 UTC
In fairness to Goons, they are just playing the game. Everything in EVE is percentage so if you have more, you make more. Is it thugging the game? Yes but that's what CCP have made EVE in to. It isn't goons fault EVE is a blob it up cowboy that relies on one factor of moar.
Ghost Xray
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1233 - 2012-06-22 16:49:07 UTC
Nirnaeth Ornoediad wrote:
Ghost Xray wrote:
[quote=Pisov viet][quote=Khergit Deserters]

And, can anyone in the CFC think objectively about this? These 5 who did this didn't just get one over on all non-CFC people. They gained an advantage over everyone else in EvE. Unless you are getting a cut. I'm not space rich enough to think 5trillion isk is just a drop in the bucket.


This wasn't a bug: it was just bad design. There's a world of difference. It was working exactly as CCP designed, even though their players (customers) warned them about tying anything to market prices. Heck, everyone's been joking for years about various killboards that show some odd, no-name module at 1B ISK because the killboard pulled the 1 Sell Order from the Region in which the kill took place, and that Sell Order was a scam attempt.

I'm fine with these few players having a significant advantage over me and everyone else in EVE. They did it through the legitimate use of game mechanics (i.e. not python injection, or glitching Grids, etc.). Not everyone can win at EVE, but even when you lose it can still be a fun game.


So, if CCP had designed it to work like this, then why did they patch anything? If nothing wrong was done, then why would the OP report it.

Everything that happened with the discovery to the reporting to CCP to CCP pushing out fixes and now investigation "abuses" (as they put it) all points to one logical conclusion. It wasn't what was intended. The OP knew it, CCP knew it, and according to you, a lot of people knew it. But It doesn't matter if you want to classify it as a bug/error/bad design/bad implementation. It wasn't how the devs intended for it to be used. Or rather, they didn't expect anyone to abuse the system. They may have counted on the fact that if anyone tried to, they'd just ban them for breaking the EULA, though I doubt they'd be Twisted enough to set people up like that. But who knows, "EvE isn't fair" so it's all fair game, amirite?
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#1234 - 2012-06-22 16:50:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Hans Jangerblitzen wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
It might be early, but hell, give it a think. Do you really want your FW represntative on the CSM fighting against you after he admittedly completely neglected the respective complaints of one entire faction for his own personal gain and profit?

For that matter, "Impeach Hans!"


LOL and where, pray tell, was this "confession" ?

I know how easy it is to see how hard I've worked to screw my enemies - maybe it was the part where I repeatedly said dockblocking could kill small gang PvP.? Or the part where I said the LP scaling was too extreme. Maybe it was the part where I said publicly that CCP needed to reset the warzone to undo my faction's plexing efforts pre-inferno so everyone started out on level ground? Perhaps you're referring to the fact that I asked CCP about making dockblocking a system upgrade rather than a fixed penalty (giving the Amarr more places they could dock).

And OH YES. The profit I've made. Are you referring to the roughly 80,000 LP I've made since Inferno, due to the fact I'm usually out defensive plexing in fleets (which pays nothing)? Or do you mean the half-dozen 5000 LP implants I bought last Saturday after missing the tier 5 spike cause I had no LP saved up? Yeah, man, I scored so big there CCP should investigate me for abuse of power! Twisted

I appreciate the morning entertainment, you conspiracy nuts are always so much fun.


Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:
I read their document a couple of nights ago

You "read our document", eh? A few days ago, eh?

I guess that means you didn't actually make 8.7b, then, since that document was literally released 1 hour ago.


Lots of us made billions, regardless of whether we knew about the manipulation or not. Roll

Every Minmatar that had saved up their millions of LP cashed out gloriously, albeit not on the scale of the manipulators. 8.7 billion is completely feasible given the opportunity that opened up.

BTW, thanks for releasing the info and removing the artificial prop-up. You wouldn't believe how I excited I am that the Amarr have less to complain about now, this severely cuts into the "Boo-hoo minnies are steamrolling us the system is so unfair". I'd much rather have the warzone control based on the fighting merit of the two militias.

If Tier 5 is indeed much more difficult to obtain, even with all the systems held by the Minmatar militia, we'll know here pretty soon, and it will mean the system is much less conducive to "snowballing" as the "losing" factions have complained about. If we are able to hit Tier 5 again, than it nukes the 3p33n claim that we only could ever achieve Tier 5 with Goon support. Either way its a win-win.

You just made my life a lot easier - maybe not that of my militia, of course, but for me personally who's job it is to monitor the state of the warzone and assess the functionality and balance of the mechanics. You've cut through the noise quite a bit by allowing the war to just play itself out, without the skewed manipulation effort.

This also means the Amarr are more likely to invest in actually winning their own war, instead of simply throwing alts into the Minnie militia to sip at our juice-fountain, if the days of the Tier 5 spike have come to a close for a while. Nicely done.


I bolded your poorly-considered confessions for you.

It sort of looks like a whole faction was complaining and you admitted to making billions off their woes to me, Hans.

And it also looks like you're glad the Goons were manipulating the system, because now you seem to think you're justified in ignoring your oppositions' complaints.

[sarcasm]Higher standards could not be had![/sarcasm]

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#1235 - 2012-06-22 16:51:57 UTC
Lapine Davion wrote:
Ghost Xray wrote:


And, can anyone in the CFC think objectively about this? These 5 who did this didn't just get one over on all non-CFC people. They gained an advantage over everyone else in EvE. Unless you are getting a cut. I'm not space rich enough to think 5trillion isk is just a drop in the bucket.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQlIhraqL7o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NisCkxU544c

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Pr1ncess Alia
Doomheim
#1236 - 2012-06-22 16:53:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Pr1ncess Alia
Goremageddon Box wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Ituhata Saken wrote:
Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,


At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. Don’t be That Guy.



By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.


When you find the game broken in a way that allows you to exploit it for unintended personal gain, CCP probably won't see things the way you do.

Read the post above. It might be me, but I dont see anything along the lines of "we are so glad certain individuals pointed this out for us and we'll see they keep their just rewards"

You tried to screw CCP and a good it of their customers. I'm not sure they are going to be as grateful as some ppl are hoping. In fact, if and when CCP reverses the damage done all Goonswarm would have done is destroy massive amounts of THEIR OWN assets for... no reason.


One could even say some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made? I can't be sure, it's not like a CCP Dev came out and said that for me.

Yeah, wow, gg. You blew all your own stuff up when you could have just filed a bug report.


It is fairly common practice in the business world to instead of prosecuting a hacker that finds a vulnerability in your network, you instead hire him. Usually that decision is based on whether the hacker showed any restraint, and whether they voluntarily shared the information in detail with the company (in other words just how much did they **** the company off with the nature of the hack).

I can see penalties being relatively light, and I think they should be. They actually kept this from becoming a huge issue in EVE. Harsh penalties in this case would only ensure that the next time a problem like this is discovered that they will keep the information to themselves, which helps no one.



well thought out. liked.


~RL analogy~ aside, most hackers just end up with legal fees and criminal records. When someone perceives theft or compromised security they don't typically reward the action. But again, stupid to discuss when we are talking about a virtual world.

I don't think the penalties will be light or harsh, just reversive. This is a far far cry from a bannable action. But it also won't be the witty enriching win ppl who benefit wish it was.

The only thing they want to ensure is that things like this are bug reported. There isn't any need to either overly punish the ppl that did it or permit them to keep what they gamed out of the system. Especially when it could negatively impact so many players that were using the mechanics as intended for years.

CCP just rejuvinated this aspect of game play. These guys compromised their product. Spit in their lunch. You really think they'll say "no big deal that these guys can wreck the LP markets for months single handedly. they earned it" ?! Wishful thinking is the nicest way I can phrase that type of intelligence w/o getting another forum ban.

In fact, we already know what they'll say! Just look up Blink
darmwand
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#1237 - 2012-06-22 16:55:49 UTC
It's somewhat disturbing to see all those cries from people who want to have the transactions reversed. I for one am not a big Goon fan but I have to say this whole thing is pretty damn impressive, well done. And I don't see what everybody is so upset about. Does it in any way stop you from running your little missions, incursions and what not? If it doesn't, then why do you care?

The only thing that bugs me is that I didn't think of it first, my Merlin could use an oil change.

"The pen is mightier than the sword if the sword is very short, and the pen is very sharp."
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#1238 - 2012-06-22 16:59:09 UTC
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
~RL analogy~ aside, most hackers just end up with legal fees and criminal records. When someone perceives theft or compromised security they don't typically reward the action. But again, stupid to discuss when we are talking about a virtual world.

I don't think the penalties will be light or harsh, just reversive. This is a far far cry from a bannable action. But it also won't be the witty enriching win ppl who benefit wish it was.

The only thing they want to ensure is that things like this are bug reported. There isn't any need to either overly punish the ppl that did it or permit them to keep what they gamed out of the system. Especially when it could negatively impact so many players that were using the mechanics as intended for years.

CCP just rejuvinated this aspect of game play. These guys compromised their product. Spit in their lunch. You really think they'll say "no big deal that these guys can wreck the LP markets for months single handedly. they earned it" ?! Wishful thinking is the nicest way I can phrase that type of intelligence w/o getting another forum ban.

In fact, we already know what they'll say! Just look up Blink

Just how is CCP going to reverse this? To eliminate the ill-gotten ISK all the customers of the goons will also have to forfeit their ill-gotten gear. That's most of Eve, by now. CCP is really going to take away the Republic Fleet Warp Disruptors from everybody who bought one at a slightly lower-than-expected rate?

I think not.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Nirnaeth Ornoediad
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1239 - 2012-06-22 16:59:10 UTC
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:

Saying it isn't an exploit over and over doesn't mean much. The only ppl that ultimately get to decide what is and isn't an exploit are the ppl who own and run the game. In light of what CCP has already said on the topic.....

It sounds less like intelligent rationalization by game savy meta gamers and more like children clapping to save tinkerbell. As if they keep on clapping and saying it wasn't an exploit CCP isn't going to take action to reverse the damage (take their stufs, which they've already eluded to in this thread) and leave them high, dry and looking like fools.


Fine, whatever. I'll agree that CCP has de facto deux ex machina power over their game, especially given how the license technically only gives players one right: to pay CCP money.

I disagree that stating "this is not an exploit" is akin to clapping for Tinkerbell (though congrats on a decent allegory). "Exploit" in the context of this game infers an actual "defect", which in the context of EVE means "not working the way CCP designed it." CCP did design it to work this way, and just ignored people (customers) who questioned this design.

Fix POSes.  Every player should want one (even if all players can't have one).
Carlos Aranda
Doomheim
#1240 - 2012-06-22 16:59:10 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:
Dramaticus wrote:
Better Than You wrote:
Aryth wrote:
This is always the case of bank robbers. Others are claiming they knew, yet they did not break the law. We did. We had a goal, we met the goal, we turned ourselves in before were caught. Bank robbers. Of course it's self serving. But I don't see anyone else lining up with detailed explanations to the police on how to rob a bank either, or proof it works. We robbed, notified the police. Done.

The bank robbery we did entailed a great deal of preparation, thought, spreadsheets, and capital. No one else moved as fast, or had the resources.


Just because you turn yourself in before you are caught, does not mean you are innocent.


The only thing I am guilty of is playing a poorly coded game.

The only thing I'm guilty of is opening a poorly locked door...


I love this. Dismantle Euphemisms

also smart thiefs only liberate stuff, not steal it. Remember it. And all prisoners are innocent, of course. Cool