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Goons 4x4ing through the Sandbox - Market Manipulation on a Grand Scale

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Private Pineapple
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1181 - 2012-06-22 15:46:13 UTC
Tallon Sylph wrote:
We can stop congratulating ourselves when we stop winning.

So never basically, given how awful you all are at this game.


You seem pretty upset.

.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#1182 - 2012-06-22 15:47:56 UTC
Ban Bindy wrote:
Aryth wrote:


It was frantic because we felt others doing this was imminent. Leaks etc. It's one thing to have a very controlled profit taking with a handful of people It's quite another for EVE at large to figure things out and dogpile. One is healthy for the game, the other is not.


Now this is hypocrisy. It's okay if we do it but not if the game at large does it. Sure. What I do is always healthy for the game, it's the other guy that's the problem.

A few people doing it isn't gonna break the game. 1000 doing it will.

Are you so thick that you can't understand that?

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Private Pineapple
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1183 - 2012-06-22 15:54:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Private Pineapple
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Ban Bindy wrote:
Aryth wrote:


It was frantic because we felt others doing this was imminent. Leaks etc. It's one thing to have a very controlled profit taking with a handful of people It's quite another for EVE at large to figure things out and dogpile. One is healthy for the game, the other is not.


Now this is hypocrisy. It's okay if we do it but not if the game at large does it. Sure. What I do is always healthy for the game, it's the other guy that's the problem.

A few people doing it isn't gonna break the game. 1000 doing it will.

Are you so thick that you can't understand that?


It's ok, my son. I will explain.

Your first mistake is not reading the post Ban Bindy quoted.

Aryth wrote:
It was frantic because we felt others doing this was imminent. Leaks etc. It's one thing to have a very controlled profit taking with a handful of people It's quite another for EVE at large to figure things out and dogpile. One is healthy for the game, the other is not.


Aryth said "one is healthy for the game, the other is not."

So Aryth said two things:

- What we (the 5), are doing is healthy for the game.
- If everyone did what we did, it wouldn't be healthy for the game.

This is incorrect.

What he did is NOT healthy for the game either. What he should've said is:

"One is unhealthy for the game, the other is even more unhealthy for the game. What we did is the better of the two evils."

But this is still hypocrisy because they could have reported the design flaw to CCP as soon as they found it.

.
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
#1184 - 2012-06-22 15:54:23 UTC
Tallon Sylph wrote:
All you pubbies must be sick of Goons winning at Eve Online like every other damn day.

Goons win at Tech Wars. The pubbie cry; Quick, nerf Tech!

Goons win at market manipulation; Quick, ban these guys for being smarter thanus (and CCP)!

Maybe you should all just get better at Eve and quit complaining huh.



You mean we should all manipulate Eve in a way that it shouldn't have been (give the guy who thought of it props for being a clever bloke but....) and take advantage of the poor distribution of a resource ?

Well if everyone was doing that, this game would be more "bad word" (save the forums replacing it) than it already is.

Quick lets all be good at EvE by breaking it Roll

Tal


Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1185 - 2012-06-22 15:55:14 UTC
Private Pineapple wrote:
Ban Bindy wrote:
Aryth wrote:


It was frantic because we felt others doing this was imminent. Leaks etc. It's one thing to have a very controlled profit taking with a handful of people It's quite another for EVE at large to figure things out and dogpile. One is healthy for the game, the other is not.


Now this is hypocrisy. It's okay if we do it but not if the game at large does it. Sure. What I do is always healthy for the game, it's the other guy that's the problem.


This is much more explanatory than my post.

Seconded.


This is always the case of first mover. Others are claiming they knew, yet they did not report it to CCP. We did. We had a goal, we met the goal, we told CCP before others could dogpile. First movers. Of course it's self serving. But I don't see anyone else lining up with detailed explanations to CCP either, or proof it works. We cashed in, notified CCP. Done.

What we did entailed a great deal of preparation, thought, spreadsheets, and capital. No one else moved as fast, or had the resources.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1186 - 2012-06-22 15:58:51 UTC
Private Pineapple wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Ban Bindy wrote:
Aryth wrote:


It was frantic because we felt others doing this was imminent. Leaks etc. It's one thing to have a very controlled profit taking with a handful of people It's quite another for EVE at large to figure things out and dogpile. One is healthy for the game, the other is not.


Now this is hypocrisy. It's okay if we do it but not if the game at large does it. Sure. What I do is always healthy for the game, it's the other guy that's the problem.

A few people doing it isn't gonna break the game. 1000 doing it will.

Are you so thick that you can't understand that?


It's ok, my son. I will explain.

Your first mistake is not reading the post Ban Bindy quoted.

Aryth wrote:
It was frantic because we felt others doing this was imminent. Leaks etc. It's one thing to have a very controlled profit taking with a handful of people It's quite another for EVE at large to figure things out and dogpile. One is healthy for the game, the other is not.


Aryth said "one is healthy for the game, the other is not."

So Aryth said two things:

- What we (the 5), are doing is healthy for the game.
- If everyone did what we did, it wouldn't be healthy for the game.

This is incorrect.

What he did is NOT healthy for the game either. What he should've said is:

"One is unhealthy for the game, the other is even more unhealthy for the game. What we did is the better of the two evils."

But this is still hypocrisy because they could have reported the design flaw to CCP as soon as they found it.


As has been stated earlier in the thread. This was pointed out by others to CCP in their design thread. They knew.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Private Pineapple
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1187 - 2012-06-22 15:58:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Private Pineapple
Aryth wrote:
Private Pineapple wrote:
Ban Bindy wrote:
Aryth wrote:


It was frantic because we felt others doing this was imminent. Leaks etc. It's one thing to have a very controlled profit taking with a handful of people It's quite another for EVE at large to figure things out and dogpile. One is healthy for the game, the other is not.


Now this is hypocrisy. It's okay if we do it but not if the game at large does it. Sure. What I do is always healthy for the game, it's the other guy that's the problem.


This is much more explanatory than my post.

Seconded.


This is always the case of first mover. Others are claiming they knew, yet they did not report it to CCP. We did. We had a goal, we met the goal, we told CCP before others could dogpile. First movers. Of course it's self serving. But I don't see anyone else lining up with detailed explanations to CCP either, or proof it works. We cashed in, notified CCP. Done.

What we did entailed a great deal of preparation, thought, spreadsheets, and capital. No one else moved as fast, or had the resources.


But you still think what you did is healthy for the game, when it would've been healthier for you to report it immediately and not make a profit off of it.

You are also incorrect about the first movers always making a self-serving act with a certain exploit, bug, flaw, whatever before reporting it. There have been cases before this incident and there will be more cases after this incident where the first movers simply reported it and did not do anything. Admit it, others have more integrity than you guys do.

.
Lucius Serjanus
Ood Mineral Resources Management
#1188 - 2012-06-22 15:59:25 UTC
Wow, awesome read!
congrats guys............




can I have some isk?
Better Than You
Doomheim
#1189 - 2012-06-22 15:59:33 UTC
The reason they reported the bug to CCP is because if they don't and everyone else gets in on the action, all the LP they made will become worthless.

It is like there is a foot race and goons found stashed in the bushes a bunch of sports cars that go 500 km/h. Instead of reporting the cars to CCP then, they instead decided to jump in one, zip ahead of everyone else for days, then hope out of the car and then tell CCP, "Yo there is these cars that could be used to speed through this race, you need to get rid of them." CCP destroys the cars, but what I want to know is:

Will CCP put the goons who used the one of the cars to gain an unfair advantage or leave them where they are after abusing a bug?
Signal11th
#1190 - 2012-06-22 16:00:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Signal11th
Private Pineapple wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Private Pineapple wrote:
Ban Bindy wrote:
Aryth wrote:


It was frantic because we felt others doing this was imminent. Leaks etc. It's one thing to have a very controlled profit taking with a handful of people It's quite another for EVE at large to figure things out and dogpile. One is healthy for the game, the other is not.


Now this is hypocrisy. It's okay if we do it but not if the game at large does it. Sure. What I do is always healthy for the game, it's the other guy that's the problem.


This is much more explanatory than my post.

Seconded.


This is always the case of first mover. Others are claiming they knew, yet they did not report it to CCP. We did. We had a goal, we met the goal, we told CCP before others could dogpile. First movers. Of course it's self serving. But I don't see anyone else lining up with detailed explanations to CCP either, or proof it works. We cashed in, notified CCP. Done.

What we did entailed a great deal of preparation, thought, spreadsheets, and capital. No one else moved as fast, or had the resources.


But you still think what you did is healthy for the game, when it would've been healthier for you to report it immediately and not make a profit off of it.

You are also incorrect about the first movers always making a self-serving act with a certain exploit, bug, flaw, whatever before reporting it. There have been cases before this incident and there will still be more cases after this incident. Admit it, others have more integrity than you guys do.



Why should they? Are they paid by CCP to bug check ...no, Their profit is their reward for figuring it out. fair play to them.

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!
Kadl
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1191 - 2012-06-22 16:00:38 UTC
It looks like an exploit to me. I would have not done it because I thought it was an exploit. I guess we will just see what CCP does. If they allow it then it creates an precedent, that to me would mean manipulate any rule to the full extent so long as the action is not explicitly banned. Unfortunately I doubt CCP will see this comment 60 odd pages.
Private Pineapple
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1192 - 2012-06-22 16:01:36 UTC
Signal11th wrote:
Private Pineapple wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Private Pineapple wrote:
Ban Bindy wrote:


Now this is hypocrisy. It's okay if we do it but not if the game at large does it. Sure. What I do is always healthy for the game, it's the other guy that's the problem.


This is much more explanatory than my post.

Seconded.


This is always the case of first mover. Others are claiming they knew, yet they did not report it to CCP. We did. We had a goal, we met the goal, we told CCP before others could dogpile. First movers. Of course it's self serving. But I don't see anyone else lining up with detailed explanations to CCP either, or proof it works. We cashed in, notified CCP. Done.

What we did entailed a great deal of preparation, thought, spreadsheets, and capital. No one else moved as fast, or had the resources.


But you still think what you did is healthy for the game, when it would've been healthier for you to report it immediately and not make a profit off of it.

You are also incorrect about the first movers always making a self-serving act with a certain exploit, bug, flaw, whatever before reporting it. There have been cases before this incident and there will still be more cases after this incident. Admit it, others have more integrity than you guys do.



Why should they? Are they paid by CCP to bug check ...no, Their profit is their reward for figuring it out. fair play to them.


Did you miss the word integrity?

.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1193 - 2012-06-22 16:01:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Aryth wrote:


What we did entailed a great deal of preparation, thought, spreadsheets, and capital. No one else moved as fast, or had the resources.


... or the mindset.

I would never pour in that much :effort: in an operation where I can't cash out with RL money. ISK is lol till CCP will allow players RMT (probably never, and by seeing how bright they are, it's for their good being).

Edit:

Also, I am honest enough to be called stupid.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Epiphaniess
Verboten Technologies
#1194 - 2012-06-22 16:02:59 UTC
Sounds to me like this is a ban worth exploitation of a bug, dupping bug.

These guys saw an obviously unintentional error in the mechanics to the changes to FW that allowed them pretty much print LP. Similar to a dupping bug, they obviously set out to take full advantage of the exploit with out any intention of letting CCP know before it was way to late.

And now they want a pat on the back, for exploiting.

I remember a while back ago there was a similar bug, exploit that was in the game. It involved a POS and breaking the moon goo alchemy chain in such a way that you could create something from nothing. CCP nailed those guys hard accounts banned everything. I believe this is a similar situation and should probably have a similar result.
Better Than You
Doomheim
#1195 - 2012-06-22 16:03:27 UTC
Aryth wrote:
This is always the case of bank robbers. Others are claiming they knew, yet they did not break the law. We did. We had a goal, we met the goal, we turned ourselves in before were caught. Bank robbers. Of course it's self serving. But I don't see anyone else lining up with detailed explanations to the police on how to rob a bank either, or proof it works. We robbed, notified the police. Done.

The bank robbery we did entailed a great deal of preparation, thought, spreadsheets, and capital. No one else moved as fast, or had the resources.


Just because you turn yourself in before you are caught, does not mean you are innocent.
Xutech
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1196 - 2012-06-22 16:05:07 UTC
Let's make it simpler again.

Buy low. Sell high.

CCP sold low. Goons sold high.

If you sell your products for the wrong price, you won't profit. The purchaser will.

If any other EVE corp had made this mistake it would be a normal day.

CCP made the mistake and they don't like it.

There is no "exploit" when you give the wrong price on an item and even less pity when you cannot cost that item.

If CCP cannot compete as a company in its own game - why should they rely on us role-playing honorable behavior?

Should we apply this logic to all market trades and business?

Should we apply this thinking to EVE warfare?
Dramaticus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1197 - 2012-06-22 16:05:20 UTC
Better Than You wrote:
Aryth wrote:
This is always the case of bank robbers. Others are claiming they knew, yet they did not break the law. We did. We had a goal, we met the goal, we turned ourselves in before were caught. Bank robbers. Of course it's self serving. But I don't see anyone else lining up with detailed explanations to the police on how to rob a bank either, or proof it works. We robbed, notified the police. Done.

The bank robbery we did entailed a great deal of preparation, thought, spreadsheets, and capital. No one else moved as fast, or had the resources.


Just because you turn yourself in before you are caught, does not mean you are innocent.


The only thing I am guilty of is playing a poorly coded game.

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#1198 - 2012-06-22 16:10:07 UTC
Dramaticus wrote:
Better Than You wrote:
Aryth wrote:
This is always the case of bank robbers. Others are claiming they knew, yet they did not break the law. We did. We had a goal, we met the goal, we turned ourselves in before were caught. Bank robbers. Of course it's self serving. But I don't see anyone else lining up with detailed explanations to the police on how to rob a bank either, or proof it works. We robbed, notified the police. Done.

The bank robbery we did entailed a great deal of preparation, thought, spreadsheets, and capital. No one else moved as fast, or had the resources.


Just because you turn yourself in before you are caught, does not mean you are innocent.


The only thing I am guilty of is playing a poorly coded game.


Good. Then you have nothing to worry about from the CCP investigation to these abusive activities.
Xutech
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1199 - 2012-06-22 16:11:53 UTC
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
Dramaticus wrote:
Better Than You wrote:
Aryth wrote:
This is always the case of bank robbers. Others are claiming they knew, yet they did not break the law. We did. We had a goal, we met the goal, we turned ourselves in before were caught. Bank robbers. Of course it's self serving. But I don't see anyone else lining up with detailed explanations to the police on how to rob a bank either, or proof it works. We robbed, notified the police. Done.

The bank robbery we did entailed a great deal of preparation, thought, spreadsheets, and capital. No one else moved as fast, or had the resources.


Just because you turn yourself in before you are caught, does not mean you are innocent.


The only thing I am guilty of is playing a poorly coded game.


Good. Then you have nothing to worry about from the CCP investigation to these abusive activities.


Because the result will be fair and even handed.
Pr1ncess Alia
Doomheim
#1200 - 2012-06-22 16:12:34 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Ituhata Saken wrote:
Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,


At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. Don’t be That Guy.



By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.


When you find the game broken in a way that allows you to exploit it for unintended personal gain, CCP probably won't see things the way you do.

Read the post above. It might be me, but I dont see anything along the lines of "we are so glad certain individuals pointed this out for us and we'll see they keep their just rewards"

You tried to screw CCP and a good it of their customers. I'm not sure they are going to be as grateful as some ppl are hoping. In fact, if and when CCP reverses the damage done all Goonswarm would have done is destroy massive amounts of THEIR OWN assets for... no reason.


One could even say some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made? I can't be sure, it's not like a CCP Dev came out and said that for me.

Yeah, wow, gg. You blew all your own stuff up when you could have just filed a bug report.