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Goons 4x4ing through the Sandbox - Market Manipulation on a Grand Scale

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Haquer
Vorkuta Inc
#1121 - 2012-06-22 14:08:50 UTC
Carlos Aranda wrote:
Dramaticus wrote:


Switzerland


you mean like the Marcos Billions? I can live with that, because Switzerland confiscated them. Usually if dictators lose their power, Switzerland confiscates the money and either pays it to a legit new government or keep it silently in their wallet.


@ jade: that would mean what? They cashed in already or not? I would say, they did not cash in the most part of what they claim to have. The market history did not change much in the last days.


You don't cash in all at once. You trickle over a long period of time as to not affect the price of the item that you're trying to sell.

Only morons dump what they're sitting on into the markets (and this is why the mineral market is crashing downward -- morons)
Pak Narhoo
Splinter Foundation
#1122 - 2012-06-22 14:09:19 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
while we're on the subject: ccp please make it an option to buy multiples of a lp item

datacores will be artificially high forever just due to the hours of click-enterclick-enter you need to do


In the days leading up to the fail that was 'Incarna' there was some talk about the Nex store and the LP store. In short as far as I can remember the LP store code is rather... crap old. Lol And having to rewrite that is going to take them a long, long time.
I think there was some suggestion to move the LP to the Nex except that the Nex is another half build working piece of code that is introduced into EVE, reason why CCP wanted to "test" the waters with a Scorpion out of thin air with custom colors on it in exchange for arum, of course that went a bit too far for some of CCP's customers. So it looks like you'll have to wait for either a total recoded LP store or by some miracle someone finishes the Nex store so it can also handle LP stuff.

To be honest after CCP nerved my R&D agents into the ground, I'm not objecting to an artificial high due to a Diablo-esk clickethyclick fest. Lol Gives me back something for my time wasted on grinding level 4 R&D agents.


Ok back to your usual.. something something.
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#1123 - 2012-06-22 14:09:33 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
Carlos Aranda wrote:

I have a problem to understand this whole claimed LP shop heist by Goons.

If I look at the items, which the Goons should have purchased in the Minmatar LP shop, they are not crashed yet. So either the Goons lied about the magnitude of their LP shop heist or they still have most of the items, they exchanged in the Fw shop in their hangars or have not exchanged the LPs in anything so far. This would lead to the next question: What will they do with it, if they really have it? Will we see Goon fleets with Republic fleet equipment and with +5 implants and hardwirings in their pods? Will they try to feed their stocks of RF items slowly in the market?

I also do not quite understand in general, what Goons do with their ISKs. We not know, how much money Goons really made out of FW shop manipulations. We do know exactly, they sit on a monopol of Tech. Surprisingly we do not see any of this ISK. Goons still fly the same crappy fleet set ups like a few months ago, while other alliances fly t3 and have still way more Supercapitals. Others also have of course ship reimbursement programs. In other words, the wealth does not reach the average Goon. Where is that money?




The answer to your question is that the goon leadership will be paying their eve subs with plex for about 17,000 years.


Knowing Aryth, he will probably responsibly reinvest it.

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#1124 - 2012-06-22 14:12:36 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
The answer to your question is that the goon leadership will be paying their eve subs with plex for about 17,000 years.

That sounds like a rumor, much like the "turn LP into ISK out of thin air" phrase.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#1125 - 2012-06-22 14:13:36 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
This quote from the op makes it pretty clear that there was a bug that "doubled the rewards" and though CCP patched the bug out "the damage was done" and the cabal had the "seed LP" for the scheme.

I guess there is a question (that only CCP can answer in their internal enquiry) of whether this bug was reported by the op at the time it was being used to gain the seed LP for the ongoing project.

You know, we can say its a bug, but we don't really actually know if it was a bug or if ccp just went "You know, double rewarding players doesn't make any sense, does it."

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#1126 - 2012-06-22 14:14:23 UTC
Gun Gal wrote:
Karadion Kohlar wrote:
Gun Gal wrote:

I remember when a whole guild was banned in UO for abusing game mechanics. SHOULD happen here as well.
.

See, that's the problem here. You played Ultima Online. Now we're talking 5 people and you are trying to encourage CCP to ban 4000+ accounts because of those 5? That's 60K smacks per month they'd lose. Good thing they don't listen to morons like you.


Uo was arguably the best sandbox game ever until it was broken up into pieces. If you never experienced it, too bad for you.


So, in your reasoning, only 5 people were to blame for **** Germany, and everyone else was just along for the ride?

and so what? Loosing 4k asshats bent on abusing the game would most likely bring in 20000 more subscriptions. There is a difference between being competitive and what the goons are doing.
Short term pain long game.

Godwin.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Carlos Aranda
Doomheim
#1127 - 2012-06-22 14:15:36 UTC
Lapine Davion wrote:

Knowing Aryth, he will probably responsibly reinvest it.


My point is still, when do we see the fruits of this? I do not see anything. Neither I see goons fly better ships than before, nor I see i.e. Improved Implants for 40 mil. Same with Tech. I guess, the answer "Switzerland" was more right than the guy really thought. The money just gets sucked in the wallets of a couple guys, who are too rich anyways, kind of like the Marcus billions or Abachi billions etc.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#1128 - 2012-06-22 14:17:23 UTC
Carlos Aranda wrote:
Lapine Davion wrote:

Knowing Aryth, he will probably responsibly reinvest it.


My point is still, when do we see the fruits of this? I do not see anything. Neither I see goons fly better ships than before, nor I see i.e. Improved Implants for 40 mil. Same with Tech. I guess, the answer "Switzerland" was more right than the guy really thought. The money just gets sucked in the wallets of a couple guys, who are too rich anyways, kind of like the Marcus billions or Abachi billions etc.

Are you implying that T3s are the "one and only ship needed for subcap SOV warfare because they're expensive"?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1129 - 2012-06-22 14:18:21 UTC
corestwo wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:
This quote from the op makes it pretty clear that there was a bug that "doubled the rewards" and though CCP patched the bug out "the damage was done" and the cabal had the "seed LP" for the scheme.

I guess there is a question (that only CCP can answer in their internal enquiry) of whether this bug was reported by the op at the time it was being used to gain the seed LP for the ongoing project.

You know, we can say its a bug, but we don't really actually know if it was a bug or if ccp just went "You know, double rewarding players doesn't make any sense, does it."


We mostly used some dramatic license. We don't know CCP's intention around the calculation of LP. This particular thing though was mostly irrelevant. Maybe 50m SP. It mostly meant we didn't lose truckloads of ISK when we were setting this all up. We spent billions (in broker fees) manipulating the item price up. Then hundreds of billions of real ISK stuff seeding ourselves. This only really kicked into high gear if you were willing to spend millions of LP donating to a faction. So many more 10's of billions spent in donations.

The cost to do this was sky high, you needed hundreds of billions in capital to attempt this at this scale. We blew all our liquid ISK and have effectively invested it in items we intend to sell off a the highest prices possible. Anyone who knows the implant market knows it's a top 20 market in EVE. It can hold enormous amounts of capital.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#1130 - 2012-06-22 14:18:44 UTC
Carlos Aranda wrote:
Lapine Davion wrote:

Knowing Aryth, he will probably responsibly reinvest it.


My point is still, when do we see the fruits of this? I do not see anything. Neither I see goons fly better ships than before, nor I see i.e. Improved Implants for 40 mil. Same with Tech. I guess, the answer "Switzerland" was more right than the guy really thought. The money just gets sucked in the wallets of a couple guys, who are too rich anyways, kind of like the Marcus billions or Abachi billions etc.


Who knows what goes on in the minds of such men? Maybe he will use it to buy plex and donate it to some relief fund.

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]
Carlos Aranda
Doomheim
#1131 - 2012-06-22 14:21:20 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
[quote=Carlos Aranda]
Are you implying that T3s are the "one and only ship needed for subcap SOV warfare because they're expensive"?


They should not be expensiv, if you really are filfthy rich. Or you could upgrade the Maelstroms in Machariels. I.e. Snuff box fly a Machariel fleet without owning Tech moons or LP shop heist.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1132 - 2012-06-22 14:21:34 UTC
Carlos Aranda wrote:
Lapine Davion wrote:

Knowing Aryth, he will probably responsibly reinvest it.


My point is still, when do we see the fruits of this? I do not see anything. Neither I see goons fly better ships than before, nor I see i.e. Improved Implants for 40 mil. Same with Tech. I guess, the answer "Switzerland" was more right than the guy really thought. The money just gets sucked in the wallets of a couple guys, who are too rich anyways, kind of like the Marcus billions or Abachi billions etc.



I would be extremely counterproductive for us to do that. The whole point is to profit as much as possible. You do not do that crushing markets long term. The markets only took impact for a short period because we needed liquidity. Think of it like a loop feeding off the market to get more capital. We would cycle ISK out of faction ships/implants/cores so that we could get to goal.

Think of it like this.

Would you invest 500b in liquid ISK to get 5T worth of assets? That is basically what was done.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#1133 - 2012-06-22 14:23:43 UTC
Lapine Davion wrote:
Carlos Aranda wrote:
Lapine Davion wrote:

Knowing Aryth, he will probably responsibly reinvest it.


My point is still, when do we see the fruits of this? I do not see anything. Neither I see goons fly better ships than before, nor I see i.e. Improved Implants for 40 mil. Same with Tech. I guess, the answer "Switzerland" was more right than the guy really thought. The money just gets sucked in the wallets of a couple guys, who are too rich anyways, kind of like the Marcus billions or Abachi billions etc.


Who knows what goes on in the minds of such men? Maybe he will use it to buy plex and donate it to some relief fund.


The fact that you would confuse us for VV...yeah, we actually find that kind of offensive.

Carlos Aranda wrote:

They should not be expensiv, if you really are filfthy rich. Or you could upgrade the Maelstroms in Machariels. I.e. Snuff box fly a Machariel fleet without owning Tech moons or LP shop heist.

You're once again operating under the assumption that all of goonswarm participated, which is not the case. Although goonswarm does already reimburse machariels in fleet ops, you just have to have a ridiculously high level of skills to qualify. Blink

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1134 - 2012-06-22 14:24:48 UTC
Lapine Davion wrote:
Mabego Tetrimon wrote:
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:
Mabego Tetrimon wrote:


Well i gratulate you on 14 Hours of mindless clicking in the FW-LP-Store.....if nothinmg else, thats an abuse of your mouse-finger for sure!




http://www.logitech.com/en-us/keyboards/keyboards/g19-keyboard-for-gaming



well, Eula break again guy:

"3. You may not use stored rapid keystrokes that facilitate acquisition of items at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play"



Confirming that buying a $200 keyboard is against the EULA.

Mainly because you should be spending that on AUR

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION
Carlos Aranda
Doomheim
#1135 - 2012-06-22 14:29:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Carlos Aranda
Aryth wrote:
Carlos Aranda wrote:
Lapine Davion wrote:

Knowing Aryth, he will probably responsibly reinvest it.


My point is still, when do we see the fruits of this? I do not see anything. Neither I see goons fly better ships than before, nor I see i.e. Improved Implants for 40 mil. Same with Tech. I guess, the answer "Switzerland" was more right than the guy really thought. The money just gets sucked in the wallets of a couple guys, who are too rich anyways, kind of like the Marcus billions or Abachi billions etc.



I would be extremely counterproductive for us to do that. The whole point is to profit as much as possible. You do not do that crushing markets long term. The markets only took impact for a short period because we needed liquidity. Think of it like a loop feeding off the market to get more capital. We would cycle ISK out of faction ships/implants/cores so that we could get to goal.

Think of it like this.

Would you invest 500b in liquid ISK to get 5T worth of assets? That is basically what was done.


That would be a very risky bet. I guess, that is why you have installed FWeddit, to stop the Minmatar FW ppl to reach tier 5 again and get FW items for prices, which are competitive to you and destroy the worth of your imaginary 5T ISK, which you avhe just in your head or book right now, not really in your wallet.
Ituhata
Killboard Padding Services
#1136 - 2012-06-22 14:30:11 UTC
Good Morning, New Eden!

I see you still have your pannies in a bunch.
Meno Theaetetus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1137 - 2012-06-22 14:30:29 UTC
Simetraz wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Courthouse wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
OP admits that his alliance broke the EULA by exploiting.

Again.

And CCP lets them stay.

And its directly because you cant afford to ban them.

Absolutely disgusting.

Consider me unsubbed.

Don't you unsub like every other week because goons did a thing? I can swear you said the same **** for burn jita and the gallente ice interdictions.

He bought a 10 year sub and has to wait for it to run out. Lol


Hmmm
With all the ISK that goonies have made could they say they quit as well and keep playing for then next 10 years.
Oh wait can you chain in multiple plex's and how many can you do ?
Hmm makes you wonder.

9000 members * 12 months * 10 Years = 1,080,000 Plex's


People seem to think that everyone in the alliance share a bank account, a small group of people in the alliance were very clever and made a lot of money. That doesn't however include the other 1000 odd people (I don't actually know how many individuals are in the alliance). It also does not include the alliance wallet.

This was just a few very rich people in the alliance that had the time, money and inclination to do what they enjoy, min max the sandbox and see what they can make within the confides of the game mechanics created by CCP.

I very much doubt CCP want to send out the message that although this is a sandbox, market manipulation, because that was what this was, is only allowed to go as far as to make you a little bit of money, make a lot and you're 'exploiting' the system.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#1138 - 2012-06-22 14:31:12 UTC
Carlos Aranda wrote:
They should not be expensiv, if you really are filfthy rich. Or you could upgrade the Maelstroms in Machariels. I.e. Snuff box fly a Machariel fleet without owning Tech moons or LP shop heist.

I should've said "more expensive". Some people seem to think "it's more expensive, so it must be better".

As to what we fly, first off not the entirety of GSF participated, and secondly there are very good reasons why you don't roll around in blingfleets all day erryday. The war in tenal showed that pretty succinctly that there are other qualities needed to win a war than "how much money can we spend".

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1139 - 2012-06-22 14:33:53 UTC
Carlos Aranda wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Carlos Aranda wrote:
Lapine Davion wrote:

Knowing Aryth, he will probably responsibly reinvest it.


My point is still, when do we see the fruits of this? I do not see anything. Neither I see goons fly better ships than before, nor I see i.e. Improved Implants for 40 mil. Same with Tech. I guess, the answer "Switzerland" was more right than the guy really thought. The money just gets sucked in the wallets of a couple guys, who are too rich anyways, kind of like the Marcus billions or Abachi billions etc.



I would be extremely counterproductive for us to do that. The whole point is to profit as much as possible. You do not do that crushing markets long term. The markets only took impact for a short period because we needed liquidity. Think of it like a loop feeding off the market to get more capital. We would cycle ISK out of faction ships/implants/cores so that we could get to goal.

Think of it like this.

Would you invest 500b in liquid ISK to get 5T worth of assets? That is basically what was done.


That would be a very risky bet. I guess, that is why you have installed FWeddit, to stop the Minmatar FW ppl to reach tier 5 again and get FW items for prices, which are competitive to you and destroy the worth of your imaginary 5T ISK


Correct. Though we didn't install FWreddit. That was just a really great troll on them. We selected Minmatar for the majority of this as we knew we could get them T5 if we were willing to spend a lot of ISK to do so. Based on their starting # of systems. It was important to get this fixed before any long term consequences to the game happened. So moving fast and selecting the quickest faction to hit T4/T5 was key.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Lexmana
#1140 - 2012-06-22 14:36:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Lexmana
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
It's not like the easy money has anything to do with why we are winning the territory war.

More people plexing for your side is not an advantage in the territory war? And piles of ISK and faction crusiers is not an advantage either ... it just means that you can field better and fewer ships to match any enemy force and that you don't have to travel back and forth re-shipping as much. No biggie right?