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Goons 4x4ing through the Sandbox - Market Manipulation on a Grand Scale

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Ten Bulls
Sons of Olsagard
#941 - 2012-06-22 11:40:49 UTC
Karadion Kohlar wrote:
We're just better at this game than you are. Quit while you're still ahead.


Thank you kind Sir for your sage advice, you are a scholar and a gentlemen, i humbly submit to one so great as yourself.
Rasmido
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#942 - 2012-06-22 11:41:08 UTC
well evaluated, well done .... well played

Do good and talk about it!
Karadion Kohlar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#943 - 2012-06-22 11:41:48 UTC
Ten Bulls wrote:
Karadion Kohlar wrote:
We're just better at this game than you are. Quit while you're still ahead.


Thank you kind Sir for your sage advice, you are a scholar and a gentlemen, i humbly submit to one so great as yourself.

You're welcome.
Xhaiden Ora
Doomheim
#944 - 2012-06-22 11:42:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Xhaiden Ora
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Sandbox means if its possible, without exploiting a bug, its legit. Very simple. Think GTA, if you are having trouble. EVE is basically multiplayer GTA in space.


I am by far not the one here having trouble with the definition of sandbox. "Sandbox" gets thrown out as the defence or excuse for absolutely everything in EVE. Even if the thing in question is actively deterimental to EVE itself. Between "Sandbox" and "HTFU" its a miracle the game accomplishes any forward progress in its development at all.

Sandbox merely means non-linear, open ended gameplay. Typically in a world that operates on its own persistent rules with or without the players intervention. With the fun, such as GTA, coming from the player actively changing the parameters of those rules in action. But the rules must still remain in place in order for the world to function.
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
#945 - 2012-06-22 11:42:38 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Graic Gabtar wrote:
In the spirit of providing facts is GS preparing any type of response if CCP having their backsides handed to them whimper their way over to their EULA and wield ban hammers or similar?

Why should CCP do anything against GSF?
I can't think of a valid reason for CCP to act against any person or any group, even though they are already flagging intent while the ink is still wet on the bug report.

CCP tried to buff a turd and just got crap everywhere. Their mess to clean up, but you can't punish people who stress your bad game design.
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#946 - 2012-06-22 11:43:04 UTC
I'm gone for a month or whatever and suddenly the forums explode in crazy tinfoil-hattery. What is wrong with you people?

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]
Vokanic
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#947 - 2012-06-22 11:43:05 UTC
Vile rat wrote:
There are no such things as death squads who hunt our political enemies. Why, that's just silly.


yer, squad implies some sort of structural organisation to goons in space. It's more a case of some initial pebbles causing the rest of the avalanche to follow in its wake. Point is, don't be at the bottom of the hill (or the guy explaining their lack of vision to their boss at CCP)
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#948 - 2012-06-22 11:43:24 UTC
Vile rat wrote:
If the people who figured this out, then told CCP while waving huge flags that read "FIX THIS OR THE ECONOMY IS SCREWED" get punished, then the only stupid thing they did was actually be dumb enough to inform CCP about the issue.


Well they could have contracted their stash and transfered the Isk to CCP Sreeg's wallet and said "read this petition it's pretty important you know." Maybe then CCP could give them a medal Cool

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
Ghost Xray
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#949 - 2012-06-22 11:43:57 UTC
Vile rat wrote:
Graic Gabtar wrote:
Vile rat wrote:
As soon as they discovered the flaw in the economy and did a proof of concept they contacted stoffer immediately. If you guys think they ran some sort of month long abuse ring you are simply devoid of the facts.

Also let me be perfectly blunt here. There was no bug abuse. They made the economy for faction war and they set the parameters. Everything that was done occured within the realm of legal game mechanics even if that wasn't the intention of the dev that coded this. As has been explained blapping frigates with titans wasn't intended either but was considered a legal, if abusive method of using game mechanics.
In the spirit of providing facts is GS preparing any type of response if CCP having their backsides handed to them whimper their way over to their EULA and wield ban hammers or similar?


This is a video game. The people who run the video game are well within their rights to run their video game however they please. If they end up overreacting and become vindictive as a result of us informing them about the laughably broken game they provided for us, well I just don't know what our motivation would be in the future to tell them when we find things.


I can't help but remember how the Goons policy regarding botting by fellow Gooines was not to be reported because "It's not our job to police botters". But now you take it upon yourself to do QA on all new things added? If you're so interested in QA'ing, do it on the test server. But, I digress.

I believe the only motivation for reporting this to CCP is to ensure nobody else has a chance to "cash in". What good is 5 trillion isk when everyone has 5 trillion isk? So, you cash out on this, then before anyone else discovers it, you make sure to get CCP to fix it.

It's not that different from saying "Yes, tech. should be nerfed". Getting it nerfed now means nobody else can profit as much in the future.

The goon have earned and are proud the rep of being general scums of the universe. Not to be trusted in any aspect. But you can keep feeling good about yourselves and how "good" you are for EvE, but I can only imagine this was goons same view of themselves before they were summarily banned from whatever other MMO they plagued.
Mabego Tetrimon
Spiritus Draconis
#950 - 2012-06-22 11:44:20 UTC
Skippermonkey wrote:
looks like abuse of the game to me
http://i.imgur.com/dtMk4.png



so quick estimate yaou guys did ~200.000 clicks to get all these items. lets do a quick math:

if you can do 4 clicks a second (well pretty fast, but we talking goons here) you get 50.000 seconds. Thats 833 minutes or about 14 hours of mindless clicking.....

Well i gratulate you on 14 Hours of mindless clicking in the FW-LP-Store.....if nothinmg else, thats an abuse of your mouse-finger for sure!
Pandi Borgia
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#951 - 2012-06-22 11:44:27 UTC
I'm not even mad, I am just impressed.
Sweetss
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#952 - 2012-06-22 11:44:32 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Tyrozan
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:
actually quite insulted that you're comparing lovely, cuddly mittens to someone like pol pot.




Yeh, Pol Pot was actually relevant in the real world. Like I said before,-----Edit-----.

Post edited.
No personal attacks, please.

ISD Tyrozan
Ensign
Community Communications Liaisons
Interstellar Services Department
Ten Bulls
Sons of Olsagard
#953 - 2012-06-22 11:45:10 UTC
Graic Gabtar wrote:

CCP tried to buff a turd and just got crap everywhere. Their mess to clean up, but you can't punish people who stress your bad game design.


CCP can pretty much do whatever they like.
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#954 - 2012-06-22 11:45:10 UTC
Hey Goons, got some spare change for me ?


Nice work !
Blawrf McTaggart
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#955 - 2012-06-22 11:46:08 UTC
Mabego Tetrimon wrote:
Skippermonkey wrote:
looks like abuse of the game to me
http://i.imgur.com/dtMk4.png



so quick estimate yaou guys did ~200.000 clicks to get all these items. lets do a quick math:

if you can do 4 clicks a second (well pretty fast, but we talking goons here) you get 50.000 seconds. Thats 833 minutes or about 14 hours of mindless clicking.....

Well i gratulate you on 14 Hours of mindless clicking in the FW-LP-Store.....if nothinmg else, thats an abuse of your mouse-finger for sure!




http://www.logitech.com/en-us/keyboards/keyboards/g19-keyboard-for-gaming
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#956 - 2012-06-22 11:46:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Jade Constantine
Vile rat wrote:
Also let me be perfectly blunt here. There was no bug abuse. They made the economy for faction war and they set the parameters. Everything that was done occured within the realm of legal game mechanics even if that wasn't the intention of the dev that coded this. As has been explained blapping frigates with titans wasn't intended either but was considered a legal, if abusive method of using game mechanics.


You could argure that having the value of the loot that dropped from the freighters available to process again whilst nonetheless counting in the isk value "destroyed" for LP was an abuse of a bug Vile Rat.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
Rudgier Thorrin
Noob Constructions LTD
#957 - 2012-06-22 11:46:29 UTC
Gun Gal wrote:
No matter how you cut it, finding a bug, not reporting it, and exploiting it is wrong.

It would be a bug if they could create ISK from thin air. Say someone discovers, that buy/sell orders are handled by different servers than the assets and abuses it by creating artificial lag between them to somehow sell/buy the same item multiple times. That would be a bug and an exploit worth banning.
The only difference between what Goons did and a "send me a bajilion ISK and I'll triple it" you have ever ten seconds in Jita chat is that they scaled it to insane proportions. It was clearly an extreme abuse of game mechanics, but still those were the mechanics created for the game and if anyone is to blame for it that would be CCP for delivering a faulty product. And I would also argue if it was faulty - a group of people worked hard to figure that out, toke some chances, risked some ISK and cashed in a profit - a perfect example of what EVE is.

Also I don't see a problem with Goons suddenly becoming very rich. It's not like you'll suddenly start encountering 250 supercap alpha fleets. All it means is that they'll start spending it for lolfits and stupid stuff (because seriously - who wouldn't?) and it will eventually produce a lot of lulzworthy killmails, because they won't give a damn about loosing it for awhile.

Implying I need a signature
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#958 - 2012-06-22 11:46:34 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
Well its not the first time that the "eve is a sandbox" theme gets thrown by the wayside when game mechanics are used in an apparently unexpected way.

It hasn't changed status from being a sandbox, the rules are just being changed.
Jade Constantine wrote:
The recent plan to near completely nerf defensive allies from the Inferno wardec system is a pretty good example of ("fairness for the attacker" trumping the sandbox of emergent gameplay and unexpected consequences) and its not the first time thats happened in the realm of hisec wardecs either.

Yes, let's completely gloss over the fact that the reason for the change was the fact that everybody more or less dogpiled into every wardec which was opened up to the public, where some corps had 50-70 active wardecs.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
#959 - 2012-06-22 11:46:40 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Talon SilverHawk wrote:
Goons took credit at the beginning of the thread now your saying your not , inconsistent ?

Tal


Let me try to say it more bluntly.

CCP has the logs and the data. They have what they need to perform an investigation. Any action they may take will be taken against those who were involved. They won't punish GSF as a whole for their actions, no matter how many Goonswarm members applaud it, simply because the people involved did this entirely on their own.

Simple enough?



So the answer is yes distancing yourselves now Twisted

Tal

Blawrf McTaggart
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#960 - 2012-06-22 11:47:07 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
Vile rat wrote:
If the people who figured this out, then told CCP while waving huge flags that read "FIX THIS OR THE ECONOMY IS SCREWED" get punished, then the only stupid thing they did was actually be dumb enough to inform CCP about the issue.


Well they could have contracted their stash and transfered the Isk to CCP Sreeg's wallet and said "read this petition it's pretty important you know." Maybe then CCP could give them a medal Cool


will you send your 8.7 billion to sreegs?