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Goons 4x4ing through the Sandbox - Market Manipulation on a Grand Scale

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Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#921 - 2012-06-22 11:25:00 UTC
Kinis Deren wrote:
No, not at all and you know it LOL - awesome or exploit that's for others to decide. I was merely intrigued by Richard's response in which he clearly felt it was important to state where the ownership for the event lay. Interesting that you avoided addressing the question yourself VR Blink


I stated that the responsibility was in the hands of the cabal rather than the alliance as a whole simply because that is a fact. It was mostly a response to your fantastic notion that it is some sort of retaliation for the Fanfest debacle - it's not. It's simply the cabal's magnum opus.

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#922 - 2012-06-22 11:25:05 UTC
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
It's a clear case of abuse, but the consequenses are still up in air. Outsmarting the devs isn't a defense. It's what every exploiter or abuser does succesfully. The only thing in question is what are the consequenses. To me this is similar to the infinite tracking abuse that happened in specific wormholes some time ago. The mechanics worked as they were designed, but created a situation where you could break the system and gain excessive benefits because of it. I believe the consequense was removal of assets CCP thought was fair to remove. I suspect something similar will happen here.

The people who did this also acted against how CCP has adviced people act in similar situations. IIRC it was posted at least in one of the forum exploit devblogs made by Sreegs. The basic gist of it was, that you're supposed to report it to CCP in detail with reproduction steps and not use the exploit once you have discovered it for any reason. A specific example of what not to do was to report it, but continuing to use it. What actually will happen to them is up to CCP to decide based on the actual details of the case, but there are clear precedences where people who acted in similar fashion have suffered from CCP actions against them.

The tracking bug wasn't a bad mechanic design, it was a bug. By turning the tracking disruptor on each other they made their tracking value go negative, which to most implementations of software that don't explicitly take negative values into account means infinite.

Notice where they said they avoided getting negative(and therefore infinite) values? There MIGHT have been a bug there, but it was deliberately avoided.

In this situation, they took legit mechanics, and used them at scales far beyond what CCP ever expected.

THERE WAS NO BUG. Just a poorly thought out formula, which was pointed out by multiple people many times prior to going live. CCP knew it was there, or is still ignoring the userbase(which they claim to have learned not to do).

In short, if CCP does take action against the people who forced them to acknowledge a poor mechanic, that was working as intended but no one ever thought would be used this way.

There is no such thing as exploiting a mechanic in EVE, only exploiting bugs. This is one of the great things about the game, which makes it stand out among MMOs. If CCP actions the perpetrators, then they are violating the sandbox they designed, just like they would have been violating it if they did anything about Burn Jita, Hulkageddon, or titans blapping subcaps.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#923 - 2012-06-22 11:26:15 UTC
Talon SilverHawk wrote:
Goons took credit at the beginning of the thread now your saying your not , inconsistent?

I haven't taken credit for anything, except being in the same alliance as them. All I've said is "that's awesome". I guess you've just got it so in for us goons that you want 9000 characters (or rather, however many people are behind those 9000 characters) to be punished for what 5 people did, if there is any punishment going to be handed out over this.

In the same vein, I guess all the tech certain alliances got through the "abuse" of tracking titans should be rolled back, too, as it was clearly not what the titans were designed to do. In the same vein, I guess the whole alliance of someone who's won an engagement in hisec due to them using neut logis should be punished, too. Or any alliance which has had people evaded any wardec camp in jita by abusing neutral alts.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Gun Gal
Dark Club
#924 - 2012-06-22 11:26:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Gun Gal

I remember when a whole guild was banned in UO for abusing game mechanics. SHOULD happen here as well.

No matter how you cut it, finding a bug, not reporting it, and exploiting it is wrong.

PS I love how you goons all circlejerked at the beginning of this thread and now are backtracking heavily.
Vile rat
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#925 - 2012-06-22 11:27:29 UTC
Graic Gabtar wrote:
Vile rat wrote:
As soon as they discovered the flaw in the economy and did a proof of concept they contacted stoffer immediately. If you guys think they ran some sort of month long abuse ring you are simply devoid of the facts.

Also let me be perfectly blunt here. There was no bug abuse. They made the economy for faction war and they set the parameters. Everything that was done occured within the realm of legal game mechanics even if that wasn't the intention of the dev that coded this. As has been explained blapping frigates with titans wasn't intended either but was considered a legal, if abusive method of using game mechanics.
In the spirit of providing facts is GS preparing any type of response if CCP having their backsides handed to them whimper their way over to their EULA and wield ban hammers or similar?


This is a video game. The people who run the video game are well within their rights to run their video game however they please. If they end up overreacting and become vindictive as a result of us informing them about the laughably broken game they provided for us, well I just don't know what our motivation would be in the future to tell them when we find things.
Xhaiden Ora
Doomheim
#926 - 2012-06-22 11:28:36 UTC
saltrock0000 wrote:
Am I the only person wondering why CCP is interfearing with the market when this is apparently a SANDBOX


"Sandbox" does not mean "Anarchy". The sandbox must still have rules and laws by which it functions. The sandbox gives you the tools to build what you want. But the tools still have to function correctly.

People need to stop using "sandbox" as a catch all defence of everything.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#927 - 2012-06-22 11:28:39 UTC
Graic Gabtar wrote:
In the spirit of providing facts is GS preparing any type of response if CCP having their backsides handed to them whimper their way over to their EULA and wield ban hammers or similar?

Why should CCP do anything against GSF?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Montmazar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#928 - 2012-06-22 11:32:34 UTC
Xhaiden Ora wrote:
saltrock0000 wrote:
Am I the only person wondering why CCP is interfearing with the market when this is apparently a SANDBOX


"Sandbox" does not mean "Anarchy". The sandbox must still have rules and laws by which it functions.


Those rules are called "game mechanics."
Ten Bulls
Sons of Olsagard
#929 - 2012-06-22 11:34:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Ten Bulls
Vile rat wrote:

If they end up overreacting and become vindictive as a result of us informing them about the laughably broken game they provided for us, well I just don't know what our motivation would be in the future to tell them when we find things.


1. Laugh at a goon leader who overseas their death squads that go around overreacting and being vindictive to people who say mean things about them complaing about others overeacting and beign vindictive.
2. CCP dont listen to anyone, why should goons get special treatment ?
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#930 - 2012-06-22 11:34:24 UTC
Gun Gal wrote:
I remember when a whole guild was banned in UO for abusing game mechanics. SHOULD happen here as well.


Nope.

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#931 - 2012-06-22 11:34:36 UTC
Xhaiden Ora wrote:
saltrock0000 wrote:
Am I the only person wondering why CCP is interfearing with the market when this is apparently a SANDBOX


"Sandbox" does not mean "Anarchy". The sandbox must still have rules and laws by which it functions. The sandbox gives you the tools to build what you want. But the tools still have to function correctly.

People need to stop using "sandbox" as a catch all defence of everything.

Sandbox means if its possible, without exploiting a bug, its legit. Very simple. Think GTA, if you are having trouble. EVE is basically multiplayer GTA in space.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#932 - 2012-06-22 11:35:23 UTC
Ten Bulls wrote:
1. Laugh at a goon leader who overseas their death squads that go around overreacting and being vindictive to people who say mean things about them.


people think this is actually a thing, lol

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Karadion Kohlar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#933 - 2012-06-22 11:36:20 UTC
Gun Gal wrote:

I remember when a whole guild was banned in UO for abusing game mechanics. SHOULD happen here as well.
.

See, that's the problem here. You played Ultima Online. Now we're talking 5 people and you are trying to encourage CCP to ban 4000+ accounts because of those 5? That's 60K smacks per month they'd lose. Good thing they don't listen to morons like you.
Blawrf McTaggart
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#934 - 2012-06-22 11:36:52 UTC
yeah haha that isn't a thing

...
Karadion Kohlar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#935 - 2012-06-22 11:37:20 UTC
Ten Bulls wrote:
2. CCP dont listen to anyone, why should goons get special treatment ?

No one says we should. We're just better at this game than you are. Quit while you're still ahead.
Vile rat
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#936 - 2012-06-22 11:38:15 UTC
There are no such things as death squads who hunt our political enemies. Why, that's just silly.
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
#937 - 2012-06-22 11:39:21 UTC
Vile rat wrote:
Graic Gabtar wrote:
Vile rat wrote:
As soon as they discovered the flaw in the economy and did a proof of concept they contacted stoffer immediately. If you guys think they ran some sort of month long abuse ring you are simply devoid of the facts.

Also let me be perfectly blunt here. There was no bug abuse. They made the economy for faction war and they set the parameters. Everything that was done occured within the realm of legal game mechanics even if that wasn't the intention of the dev that coded this. As has been explained blapping frigates with titans wasn't intended either but was considered a legal, if abusive method of using game mechanics.
In the spirit of providing facts is GS preparing any type of response if CCP having their backsides handed to them whimper their way over to their EULA and wield ban hammers or similar?


This is a video game. The people who run the video game are well within their rights to run their video game however they please. If they end up overreacting and become vindictive as a result of us informing them about the laughably broken game they provided for us, well I just don't know what our motivation would be in the future to tell them when we find things.
I think that is a very reasonable position to take and I thank you for your response.
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#938 - 2012-06-22 11:40:17 UTC
saltrock0000 wrote:
So CCP just totaly went against thier entire ethos.

"Eve is a sandbox"

Yet CCP changed the average price of items on the market. Not very much of a sandbox if you ask me, CCP should pick a stance on the whole thing and stick to it, not allow alot of lets be honest bannable things because "eves a sandbox" and then act on others because "eves a sandbox".


Goons really opened my eyes to what a hypocritical company CCP is, picking the line "eves a sandbox" when they cant be bother'd to act on something, like say, hulkageddon or griefing. Then instantly jumping on something like this.

All goons did to my understanding was play the games withing the rules, with some amrket manipulation afterall eves a sandbox.



Byt the way did i mention "EVES A SANDBOX"




Well its not the first time that the "eve is a sandbox" theme gets thrown by the wayside when game mechanics are used in an apparently unexpected way. The recent plan to near completely nerf defensive allies from the Inferno wardec system is a pretty good example of ("fairness for the attacker" trumping the sandbox of emergent gameplay and unexpected consequences) and its not the first time thats happened in the realm of hisec wardecs either. See Xetic Confederation complaining about 0.0 and wardecs in a threadnaught (old scale) that would see the war system nerfs that would last up to inferno.

But problem with all this is you can't have CCP kneejerking to intervene in the sandbox to protect one side while not doing it to protect another - thats when all the developer bias stuff begins to appear and people lose faith in the game.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
Blawrf McTaggart
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#939 - 2012-06-22 11:40:27 UTC
actually quite insulted that you're comparing lovely, cuddly mittens to someone like pol pot.
Signal11th
#940 - 2012-06-22 11:40:47 UTC
Humm not seeing what all the fuss is about really, a group of players saw the potential to make isk,make lp whatever...basically because the people who inplemented the opportuntiy didn't think it through correctly.

I'm all for jumping on I/We/All hate Goon threads but I'm struggling to see why there should be any comeback about this...

As I mentioned previously I say fair play to the chaps for being fecking clever and figuring it out.

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!