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Rebalancing turrets

Author
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2011-10-07 11:14:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Nalha Saldana
When I heard that they are fixing hybrid turrets i got very excited, I've always liked the gallente style and would really like to see them become a bigger part of the game.
I started thinking about how they could fix it and started realizing that a whole bunch of stuff about turrets needs fixing, the hulls are actually pretty good balanced as they are.

First of all there is 3 different values that are the most important one to turrets and the different races have specialized in them but with many changes over the years this is not how they work today and it should be fixed through a series of iterations.

The races should specialize like this:
Amarr – Long range, ok dps, slow tracking
Minmatar – Fast tracking, medium range, low dps
Gallente – High DPS, ok tracking, short range

Graph of races turrets

The turrets today look a little bit like this today but the differences aren’t big enough.
Amarr is pretty ok where it is atm.
Minmatar needs shorter range, a bit less dps and maybe a littlebit better tracking.
Gallente needs more damage, a littlebit more range on the short range turrets and maybe some tracking improvement.

When it comes to rate of fire (ROF) and alpha strike (the amount of damage you do per volley) they should also specialize a bit more.
The short range turrets gain more from having a fast ROF so the lower dps of the turret the faster it should shoot.
Long range turrets on the other hand benefit more from high alpha strike and should therefore be the opposite, the lower dps the higher alpha it should have.
This way they will all be balanced choices between them and fleets/ships can specialize more making fitting and planning better and more fun.

As we know there are also choices within the types of turrets (IE blasters or artillery) like the medium autocannons 180mm, 220mm and 425mm. These turrets should also specialize to give more options within the races niche other then just PG/CPU use.

This is an example of how medium autocannons could differ.
Graph of autocannons

But these "bonuses" should be small enough so they don't go into other races niches.


So why specialize like this?
Well Minmatar for example use fast, agile and fragile ships and need therefor tracking speed to hit while speed tanking. They also benefit from a bit of range to kite some enemies at mid range so therefor they cannot have good dps or they will dominate combat.
Amarr and Gallente use slow and tanky ships and therefor need to counteract this by having either long range or high dps to be able to win different fights. Their smaller ships that actually have speed use their bonus of range or dps to beat their opponents at what they are good at.

This will probably mean that Minmatar ships will still be best for 1v1 pvp and I think they should, speed and control is what they are meant to do.
Amarr and Gallente ships should be the dominant ships in big fleet engagements to utilize either range or dps to kill thier opponents with different tactics. Tho Minmatar could be the choice if you decide to kill people with alpha strike but this should never outshine the other dps choices in every fight.
Jaketh Ivanes
Rigorous Rivals
#2 - 2011-10-07 13:51:51 UTC
I like this concept.
And yes, it does make Minmatarr very strong. Dictating range on Gallente, so they can't shoot. Out fly the Amarr turrets, so they can't hit and outrun Caldari missiles. Unless they make a mistake :).
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2011-10-07 14:17:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Nalha Saldana
Jaketh Ivanes wrote:
I like this concept.
And yes, it does make Minmatarr very strong. Dictating range on Gallente, so they can't shoot. Out fly the Amarr turrets, so they can't hit and outrun Caldari missiles. Unless they make a mistake :).


Yea but minny ships are even more powerful today tbh
And this is why they should have lowest dps, they win the fight by other means
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#4 - 2011-10-07 14:38:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Nalha Saldana wrote:
Minmatar – Fast tracking, medium range, low dps
Gallente – High DPS, ok tracking, short range
No. Short range must be accompanied by fast tracking, or the damage is irrelevant. At medium range, fast tracking becomes a damage bonus. For the record, autocannons do not need better tracking — they are already better than blasters.

You're also missing a huge factor here: short range/high-damage (forgetting the tracking problems) is supremely worthless if you cannot get into a position to deliver that damage. This means that you can't just look at the guns — you have to look at the platforms. Since the Gallente boats are markedly slower than the Minmatar ones, that short range is crippling, and the hulls most definitely need to be a part of the fix.

What you're describing here is basically:

Minmatar — medium range, medium damage, ability to dictate the fight.
Gallente — low range, low damage, no ability to dictate the fight.

…or, as you hint at, the same situation we have right now. Making the current situation “more the same” only means that blasters become more bad.

If you don't want to fiddle with the ships, you more or less have to completely reverse blasters and ACs: blasters get the range, ACs get the damage. If you don't want to fiddle with the guns, you have to completely reverse the hulls: blaster boats get speed and agility, AC boats get… well… nothing. If you don't want to do any reversals at all, you have to buff blaster damage and tracking through the stratosphere.
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2011-10-07 15:21:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Nalha Saldana
Tippia wrote:
Nalha Saldana wrote:
Minmatar – Fast tracking, medium range, low dps
Gallente – High DPS, ok tracking, short range
No. Short range must be accompanied by fast tracking, or the damage is irrelevant. At medium range, fast tracking becomes a damage bonus. For the record, autocannons do not need better tracking — they are already better than blasters.

You're also missing a huge factor here: short range/high-damage (forgetting the tracking problems) is supremely worthless if you cannot get into a position to deliver that damage. This means that you can't just look at the guns — you have to look at the platforms. Since the Gallente boats are markedly slower than the Minmatar ones, that short range is crippling, and the hulls most definitely need to be a part of the fix.

What you're describing here is basically:

Minmatar — medium range, medium damage, ability to dictate the fight.
Gallente — low range, low damage, no ability to dictate the fight.

…or, as you hint at, the same situation we have right now. Making the current situation “more the same” only means that blasters become more bad.

If you don't want to fiddle with the ships, you more or less have to completely reverse blasters and ACs: blasters get the range, ACs get the damage. If you don't want to fiddle with the guns, you have to completely reverse the hulls: blaster boats get speed and agility, AC boats get… well… nothing. If you don't want to do any reversals at all, you have to buff blaster damage and tracking through the stratosphere.


What i want is minny guns that do way less dps but have awesome tracking so they can even shoot ships smaller then themselves.
I want gallente to have a lot more dps and maybe a bit more tracking, they shouldnt have any trouble with same sized ships (even minny) orbiting outside web range.

Yes the minny could probably always win a 1v1 but in a fleet fight those gallente hard hitters would win as long as there is a fleet fight with fast flying/long range webs.
The gallente should get some more range because what they have now is a bit silly.

For short range medium turrets something like this would make sense as range with different t1 ammo
Gallente: (4-12)+8km
Minmatar: (2-6)+16km
Amarr: (8-24)+4km

Ofc a gallente that goes with 12+8km ammo would have horrible dps but it should be possible.
The minmatar range is better since they get 2+16km with high dps ammo while gallente gets 4+8
Remember that these numbers are without tracking enhancers or similar range upgrades.

Todays dps on a single turret is
blaster 42
autocannon 32
pulse laser 36

These numbers should be tweaked to differ a bit more, about 10% up on blasters and down on ACs or so.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#6 - 2011-10-07 15:30:13 UTC
Nalha Saldana wrote:
What i want is minny guns that do way less dps but have awesome tracking so they can even shoot ships smaller then themselves.
That's a bad idea for a different reason — smaller ships are supposed to be hard to hit (so they're still useful when mixed with larger ships). No, the balance needs to be done within the same class, and not try to also create role differences between the guns. We already have the ability to fit different guns and/or use drones if we want to widen the range of viable targets — that is sufficient.
Quote:
I want gallente to have a lot more dps and maybe a bit more tracking, they shouldnt have any trouble with same sized ships (even minny) orbiting outside web range.
The problem is that they have trouble with ships orbiting inside web range due to how short range magnifies angular velocity, so they need a lot more tracking to do their job.
Quote:
Yes the minny could probably always win a 1v1
…and that's why it's not good balance.
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2011-10-07 15:37:33 UTC
Tippia wrote:
That's a bad idea for a different reason — smaller ships are supposed to be hard to hit (so they're still useful when mixed with larger ships). No, the balance needs to be done within the same class, and not try to also create role differences between the guns. We already have the ability to fit different guns and/or use drones if we want to widen the range of viable targets — that is sufficient..

This is something minmatar already got, vagas pop frigs, ragnaroks pop BSs, canes pop SBs and this is something they should continue doing.
I don't want them to be super awesome at it but it should be the guns to use if you want to do it efficiently.

Quote:
The problem is that they have trouble with ships orbiting inside web range due to how short range magnifies angular velocity, so they need a lot more tracking to do their job.

Yes, lets give them enough to track webbed targets.

Quote:
…and that's why it's not good balance

Well if we are going to balance this game around 1v1 all ships got to be way too similar, if you want to beat minny ships bring a counter ship with specific bonuses for it.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#8 - 2011-10-07 15:51:00 UTC
Nalha Saldana wrote:
This is something minmatar already got
I think you're overestimating how much better than blasters ACs track. It is not that much.
Quote:
I don't want them to be super awesome at it but it should be the guns to use if you want to do it efficiently.
No. If you want to do it effectively, you should have to fit the right size guns for the purpose, not just one particular kind of gun. If the cross-size efficiency were as large as you claimed, that would only be further argument to massively nerf the tracking of ACs. Again, it's not a good idea to add in those kind of special roles to particular types of guns unless the gun selection is completely free and open. Since different races' ships have bonuses to different guns, this is not the case, and the role selection is already handled better through other means.
Quote:
Well if we are going to balance this game around 1v1 all ships got to be way too similar, if you want to beat minny ships bring a counter ship with specific bonuses for it.
Just one problem: there is no counter to a gun that does the same amount of damage at longer ranges with better tracking, fitted to a ship that dictates the fight. Solving that does not entail making all ships similar — it entails spreading out the advantages on different ships. Instead of one ship having it all, you might instead have one that is fast/short-range; one that is long-range/poor-tracking; one that is universally applicable, but with “meh” performance; etc. etc. etc.
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2011-10-07 16:03:51 UTC
Quote:
I think you're overestimating how much better than blasters ACs track. It is not that much.

Im flying minmatar daily and popping frigates with cruiser size ACs is no big deal.

Quote:
Just one problem: there is no counter to a gun that does the same amount of damage at longer ranges with better tracking, fitted to a ship that dictates the fight. Solving that does not entail making all ships similar — it entails spreading out the advantages on different ships. Instead of one ship having it all, you might instead have one that is fast/short-range; one that is long-range/poor-tracking; one that is universally applicable, but with “meh” performance; etc. etc. etc

Ever tried to fight a Curse with a Vagabond?
Anyway with the changes I have said above a fight between standard minmatar cruiser and a standard gallente cruiser would look like this:
Minmatar is faster with a littlebit more range but got quite a bit lower dps.
Gallente is slow with massive short range dps meaning that if the enemy comes within web range hes dead. If he kites you swap to longest range ammo and hope your tank holds for long enough so you can slowly dps him down. Your tank should be way bigger then his but at this range his dps will be better.
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2011-10-07 22:23:01 UTC
Todays long range turrets are horribly unbalanced and needs fixing. I made these graphs to explain its problem and a solution that I liked.
Any arguments for changes are welcome, I'm not sure this is the best way to do it.

Long range turret graphs
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#11 - 2011-10-07 22:36:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Nova Fox
I think that longer range guns need to be more reliant on the ammo they shoot and have lower base damage overall.

and that short range weapons are more reliant on the module itself.

Then have newer attributes to the ammo that effect rate of fire or tracking, so a multifrequency would require a longer cool between fires or that a antimatter makes the gun heavier to turn. that sort of idea.

It would make ammo a sensible and logical thing to look over again.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2011-10-07 22:43:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Nalha Saldana
Nova Fox wrote:
I think that longer range guns need to be more reliant on the ammo they shoot and have lower base damage overall.

and that short range weapons are more reliant on the module itself.

Then have newer attributes to the ammo that effect rate of fire or tracking, so a multifrequency would require a longer cool between fires or that a antimatter makes the gun heavier to turn. that sort of idea.

It would make ammo a sensible and logical thing to look over again.


You know minmatar ammo already got tracking bonuses?
short range +0%
mid range +20%
long range +5%

But I agree, something like this should be implemented to the other 2 races as well.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#13 - 2011-10-07 22:54:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Nova Fox
well yes but I want it to be more meaningful play value as imo there are too many ammo types and most people either go one way or another and nothing in between.

Like thoruim would be a bit heavier but still gets alot of range while iron just get alot of range and improves tracking a small bit. but this is just an example.

That way at least 4 ammos out of the 6-8 would get used and it may be possible to toy around with the middle ground of each gun zone to toy in other ways like refire rate or power to fire.

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Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2011-10-07 23:08:29 UTC
Tho they do have the cap bonus atm instead of tracking, guess thats why they added the tracking mod to minmatar ammo.
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#15 - 2011-10-07 23:31:06 UTC
Nalha Saldana wrote:
Todays long range turrets are horribly unbalanced and needs fixing. I made these graphs to explain its problem and a solution that I liked.
Any arguments for changes are welcome, I'm not sure this is the best way to do it.

Long range turret graphs

Why do artilery all of a sudden have the best tracking?

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction

Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2011-10-07 23:56:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Nalha Saldana
Pattern Clarc wrote:
Nalha Saldana wrote:
Todays long range turrets are horribly unbalanced and needs fixing. I made these graphs to explain its problem and a solution that I liked.
Any arguments for changes are welcome, I'm not sure this is the best way to do it.

Long range turret graphs

Why do artilery all of a sudden have the best tracking?


Because it doesn't make sense that the longest range weapon would have the best tracking so its either artillery or rails.

EDIT: When I think about it more it makes more sense that rails would have better tracking, would make it more balanced.
Cpt Fina
Perkone
Caldari State
#17 - 2011-10-08 05:18:00 UTC
Why should gallente be slow?
Slow ship with short optimal wont do well in your fleetbattles m8.

I really hope that the 0,0-fleet blobbers don't get their way with gallente blasters and makes them ACs mk.II.
Blasters used to excell in small gang / solo warfare – and just because some people never joins a gang that doesn't require a wingcommander doesn't mean that they should alter the role of the weaponsystemto cater to their reality.

Blasters should be as unviable for fleetfights as cruisemissiles are for sniping.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#18 - 2011-10-08 05:39:48 UTC
Ultimately I think hybrid weapons would have the largest refire rates becuase they require magnetic fields to be generated before they are proper launched. then the damage to compensate

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Cpt Fina
Perkone
Caldari State
#19 - 2011-10-08 05:46:11 UTC
The last thing we need is some roleplay logic behind the hybrid change.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#20 - 2011-10-08 06:03:16 UTC
Cpt Fina wrote:
The last thing we need is some roleplay logic behind the hybrid change.


Its called flavoring, make the weapons all to homegenous and you might as well call them all autocannons.

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