Player Features and Ideas Discussion

I feel like we're starting to unveil an underlying problem here, that the frigate range is simply too crowded and if you try to make nearly all of them a) general all round combat platforms, and b) internally balanced, there isn't really room for all these T1 frigates to find a niche of their own. We're already seeing toes being trodden on here, and the missile platforms and the ex-mining hulls (Tormentor aside) haven't even been touched yet, never mind what might happen with the e-war or probing platforms - in the Devblog Ytterbium talks of making the ewar hulls better able to inflict damage by, for example, giving the crucifier a droneboat role and the Vigil getting a launcher/painter synergy theme.

Are we really going to see 16 'general all rounder' T1 combat frigate hulls all with dual weapon bonuses and distinguished only by which racial weapon system they use, minor variations in their speeds or EHP, or slightly shuffled slot layouts, and with the non-combat frigates getting nudged into the mix too? That sounds like a mess. This is part of the reason that I liked the suggestion of making one of the existing frigate ranges into destroyers - it solves two problems at once (too many frigates and not enough destroyers) without requiring completely new ship models (although the upgrades would need some art department work to account for rescaling and the altered weapon hardpoints). That, and scrapping the missile frigates as a niche since the only real difference between a missile-based combat frigate and a turret based combat frigate is that missiles are laughably terrible, and I'd assume that will be fixed at some point anyway.

Rockets won't reach even to 20 kms with Frigate 5 skills and maxed rocket/missile skills and even a overheated WD is meaningless at that range "advantage" as well, missiles could hit from that distance though not reliably against moving targets and aganst fast targets they will do minimal damage. To do any effective damage or to tackle the condor will have to move in from this "sniping" range and it doesn't have the speed to dictate range. I wouldn't use it over any of the other possibilities.

Kinetic-only bonuses bug me as well - it's like having an Amarr ship which gets an energy turret bonus but only when using Ultraviolet crystals.

Isn't this usual on missile ships? It's probably because missiles do pure damage types - the bonus is making you consider whether to go with your racial damage bonus or whatever might be the target's lower resist, and what might do more damage. Makin' you think.

No useless ******* frig with two mids!

Horrah!

I don't care about the rest, as long as a frig has three mids it can work.

While I don't actually mind the way the condor is layed out at the moment I do think it needs a little more to help it stand up with its counterparts. the long range damage projection is awesome but the fitting requirements of light missiles pretty much exclude the addition of anything else particularly meaningful as we'd need at least a MAPC to fit them and then still be DAMN tight if we want to look at getting a mwd on to hold range.

which in turn begs the question why fly one over a kestrel? the role bonus would go some way to this but even then the extra launcher and significantly better damage bonuses of the kestrel kind of make the 3 launcher condor a little... eh?

as a pure tackler it serves pretty well admittedly with its superior locking range letting it make better use of a T2 long point against slower opponents but thanks to being the slowest of the attack frigates its the most vulnerable to counter attack from other fast frigates such as the rifter or the other attack frigates.

the core concept is good, the condor will most certainly look awesome as a missile boat akin to its big brother the crow but it needs a bit more love for people to have any reason to fly it over the kestrel for long range combat or the merlin for closer under 10km range fighting.

of course the kestrel will be getting a revamp as well but we can only assume to get more missile bonuses much like how the condor is currently designed with the exception of having an extra launcher and most likely a better/ the same slot layout for the job. you of course get rocket kestrels as well which admittedly don't have access to the 4 mids needed to make a real rocket kite boat work but will do 150dps to the condor's 70 or so.

it leaves the condor in a curious niche where it can't fight close up anywhere near as well as a merlin or fight at range anywhere near as well as a kessie. while slotting into a little spot inbetween perhaps as a rocket kite ship the significantly low dps will often leave it outclassed by a good number of potential opponents, Scorch amarrian frigates alone would be a no win engagement. (which admittedly should be a hard fight due to EM damage but not a near impossible one)

an obvious solution would be to maybe swap the range bonus in favour of a RoF bonus to boost the damage output of the rockets/missiles to be closer to that of the kestrels launchers, but the distinct difference of the condor's superior slot layout (for caldari at least) compensating for the 1 less launcher. (4/4/2 as opposed to the kestrel's 4/3/2)

a kestrel currently gets around 155 dps on a single BCUII fit with its 10% damage bonus and rage rockets.
the condor would be looking at around 115-120 or so with the boost from a 5% damage to a theoretical 10%*

of course this is rage rockets we're talking about with their large splash and significantly reduced effective range down to a "perfect" 9.1km optimal which probably works out closer to 7-8km when you account for targets moving and the like which is admittedly a damn nice sweet spot to work in for a kite ship, at the hard edge of meta scrams without overheat.

its just a suggestion of course but it would give more the impression of an "attack" frigate focused on offense and taking the fight to the enemy.

as it is, the condor will see use at most as an inexpensive interceptor for people who can't fly the other races offerings yet and thats kind of sad, we've all seen the awesome inferno vid where the condor/crow was screaming into combat at high speed to meet the enemy in glorious combat for the state! give us a reason to barrel roll our lopsided manchild of a frigate into the jaws of death!

(numbers asspulled from on evefit with all skills V)

*this is still assuming a BCUII on there mind

I don't think Its too unreasonable to plan for higher end levels of combat for these revamped hulls personally. I can only speak from an RvB perspective where these ships often find themselves being used a lot more regularly than in low and null and for typically more jobs than most in our more frigate -> cruiser heavy fleets (for cheap lulz don'tchaknow)

all told I'd hope it'd be an ideal that eventually there won't be any "duff" hulls like we have at the moment, its a fairly wild dream but one ccp is having a crack at either way with the plans for tiericide.

but to make these ships SPECIFICALLY as tacklers? nah. while the role bonus certainly sets them up as superior tacklers to the combat frigates I don't think it should be the only thing they should do, that's what interceptors are for after all. the T2 ships being specialised for specific jobs. the assault frigates specifically for frontline combat, the interceptors for high speed tackle, the bombers for.... bombing...

you get the idea ^_^

if you can think of combat frigates being say; 30% damage oriented, 25% tackle oriented, 30% tank oriented and 15% speed oriented I don't think it'd be unreasonable to say that attack frigates are more intended to be layed out as 25% damage, 30% tackle, 15% tank and 20% speed in their conception; while the T2 frigates would polarise these numbers a good deal more, say 70% tank/gank while 30% tackle/speed for assault ships. these random percentages aren't accurate of course and more conceptual, you don't use harpies specifically as tacklers after all but you might very well want to try it with the new slashers.

i'm just pulling these numbers out of my ass for the sake of a description here but to have the attack frigates as "noob tackle frigates" seems a bit, I dunno, unimaginative? While they will indeed be more tackle oriented than the combat frigates I'd like to think of them more as the "first wave" of attack rather than just the initial point who's job is only to hold on and not die long enough to others to turn up. give the noobs a chance to get their teeth in after all.

What I suppose i'm getting at is I don't think that T1 ships should not outright say "THIS DOES THIS!" but have inclinations to steer you towards styles of play but not outright lock you in them with particular hulls. that's what the T2 ships are for. T1 gives you more options than T2 but T2 is significantly better at those specific things.

Its all just spitballing on my part of course, should probably save these ideas for the next podcast ^_^

yeah i never wrote that :P

I was referring to this:

The part about the condor wasnt directed specifically at you. Should have clarified that.



1: Have to disagree: Logi is a SPECIALIZATION. T1 Ships are Versatile (Can fit RR/Shield Transporters) While T2 Ships are Specialised (Logi ships are nigh on useless at anything that doesnt involve Remote Armor Reps/Shield Transporters/Energy Transfers/Tracking Links) As such, I can't agree with T1 Ships having Logi bonuses (Note: Includes T1 Logi Cruisers - turn them into Combat Cruisers) Though I fully agree with a T2 Logi Frigate.

2: Please dont shoehorn my Missile ship into long range. I want to brawl with rockets. Try and stop me from doing so.

3: Disagree. They are currently pretty versatile.

4: No. This would kill versatility and make these ships too predictable - though there needs to be some dignificant balancing between these faction ships (See: Daredevil vs. Succubus)
And yes, Angel ships are still overpowered.

5: Tell me how a frig using Drones makes no sense. Though I agree that Using drones should come at the expense of Turret/Launcher DPS, and that too many ships have too many drones.
While I dont use drones, statements like this irritate me. Drones are a weapon system, and weapon systems are meant to be used. Why should someone that wants to specialize in drones be completely boned when it comes to Frigates?
From a Caldari Missile user, all we and our Gallente DroneBros want is alittle equality between the different weapon systems.
(Ill admit, our DroneBros have it slightly worse than we do ATM)
But thats a post for another thread.

While I have to agree the role bonus is a bit 'touchy' its really hard to make that bonus any more generic without overstepping into other roles. However then comes problem 2 tech 2 speicalization roles that further break this bonus down into somethings peicfic such as range bonus or effectiveness.

Now then lock range should be adjusted against lock speeds so the longest locking ship should have the slowest of all the lock speeds. Adjust it so that the fastest ship naturally has the largest signature of the four. Becuase art limits the numbe rof guns try to adjust the damages to be near on par with each other if no wepaon changes are planned. It is probably much easier to adjust ships to compensate for a weapon change than to wait on one but then agian im not QA or a dev.

Cargo Space, should be also a consideration for balances as well we dont need players stuffing thier cargo holds ful of cap batteries to run thier ships longer than the intended 'strike.'

Overal HP Grid CPU and slot boost is welcome. However we're now dangerous approaching stepping on tech 2 ship's toes It should be highly considered to do the tech 2 frigates adjustsments before moving onto crusier sized hulls as many of these newer hullls could almost put a tech 2 version to shame at times.

Please consider naming these strike frigates they're only designed to go in smack the enmy and not do it for long. attack infers (as a former military) much heavier damage against unlike targets in eve's case a non-frigate ship.

Also are any of these ships getting thier descriptions updated to the teir 3 BC format?

Finally military versions of the starter frigates? are we ever going to get them?