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zero9300

Broski Bad End

Likes received: 23

#61 - 2012-06-21 18:55:43 UTC

I don't think you FW guys 'get' how to motivate a fight through objective.

I understand most of your guys are here for the smaller scale pvp, but consider the way 0.0 fights often occur, the tech moon example:
Badass alliance reinforces Sicknasty alliance's tech moon in Perrigan Falls.
Sicknasty might not have responded to the initial shooting of the moon, but both sides now have a timer which defines the next time the moon is vulnerable
If Sicknasty wishes to keep that tech moon secure, they will need to repair the pos up to 50% shield to restront (something you can't easily do with a fleet promptly arriving)

Sicknasty forms up a fleet, Badass forms up a fleet, they meet as samurai on the honourable field of combat to duke it out for control of the moon.
If Sicknasty doesn't wish to engage Badass's fleet, then Badass is rewarded with the moon.

The isk value/tangible reward goes hand in hand with an incentive to fight. 0.0 mechanics aren't perfect, and theres a lot of little ruses (blueballing, timer tuning, "timezone warfare", etc.) that are distasteful to many, and the size and capital demanded to be independent sov holders filters a lot of people from even trying.

We (pizza) aren't doing the 0.0 thing right now because its not our style at the moment. We thought FW would be a decent niche for our size, but there aren't very attractive objectives for us to achieve as a group, ya know, a team. As the ihubs become vulnerable at nebulous times, etc. When the warfare control is pretty much defined by how much idling you can do in a system's plexes, its not a very attractive venue.

Hans Jagerblitzen

Ice Fire Warriors

Likes received: 4,171

#62 - 2012-06-21 18:56:53 UTC

Lucia Denniard wrote:

Well, here are my thoughts for the evening, what if Faction Warfare worked like Incursions, and you earned LP into a pool which paid out when the system flipped? That'd encourage actually taking systems and offensively plexing in systems you intend to take.

My other thought is that complexes should be done in groups, so you could either crank up the rat difficulty, or just hold people there until the rats have died. Scram/web rats would work pretty well, holding down players for extended periods, leaving them open to possible PVP situations.

Any and all crazy ideas are appreciated.

Your observations in the original post are spot-on. These are all well-documented issues facing the FW system.

The NPC issue is being discussed in some Developer-posted and monitored threads, an NPC overhaul is in the pipes, likely a Winter Expansion project. So there's lots of time to discuss how that situation could be improved.

The challenge of course, is keeping FW unique from incursions. At first, everyone screamed DONT MAKE FW NULLSEC-LITE! And now we have a whole community screaming for forced rat-shooting, or better rat AI. While those would certainly help the obvious farming and risk / reward issues, they do create problems of their own. You don't want plexes to be so rat-oriented that FW becomes a race to see who can complete more incursion-style sites than the other, and you dont want the sites to be so difficult that you can't PvP while rats are in the plexes either.

Nice analysis overall. Its good to hear the perspective from someone who just joined up, confirming what most us have been debating for a couple of months now.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

chatgris

Quantum Cats Syndicate

Of Essence

Likes received: 745

#63 - 2012-06-21 19:02:58 UTC | Edited by: chatgris

Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:

You don't want plexes to be so rat-oriented that FW becomes a race to see who can complete more incursion-style sites than the other, and you dont want the sites to be so difficult that you can't PvP while rats are in the plexes either.

I'd like to point out that the idea to require all rats to be killed does NOT REPLACE the timer - it is in addition to it. So no "rat killing" race would be occurring. It is merely a mechanic to do two things

a) Stop the unfitted frigates from having such an impact on sov
b) Give some incentive for either
i) the right sized ship to enter the plex to be able to kill the rats in a reasonably amount of time
ii) or more small ships

all the while still leaving the plex to be a place where a smaller ship can come in and get a fight (no omgwtfbbq rats).

Duke Dantez

Tribal Liberation Force

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 23

#64 - 2012-06-21 19:34:45 UTC

chatgris wrote:

Duke Dantez wrote:

But some people (not you) chose to ignore the fact that when you change a game mechanic to squash a particular behavior (“afk” plexers) you might inadvertently destroy the mechanic that encourages fights (like adding more intense Ewar to NPCs).

With a notification system you can easily travel to the system with the “afk” rifter and kill him.

I think your idea would fix the afk rifter problem without interfering with pvp.

Even with a notification system, those that just want to afk plex will run and run until the pvpers get bored, and they will still be making progress on the plexes as you chase them around (they hit the button for 20s here and there etc). The best solution I've heard is a combination of changes

1) Notifications when someone is in a plex

2) Kill all rats - at least then a t1 frigate without guns can't be as effective. Farmers need to choose between higher dps/range ships (which are generally larger and easier to catch) or small ships with close range dps that will not farm as effectively

3) Timers count backwards to starting state (NOT capture) when no-one is on a plex button. For example, say farmer starts running a plex, and 4 minutes later I get to his system (after being notified) and chase him out. He runs away. While I am chasing him around, his work is undone which means that he can't just return to his plex with his previous work still there and resume farming, while he runs he loses his work without forcing the pvper to sit on the button and cry himself to sleep out of boredom.

Good points

Cearain

Plus 10 NV

Likes received: 1,515

#65 - 2012-06-21 21:21:14 UTC

zero9300 wrote:

We (pizza) aren't doing the 0.0 thing right now because its not our style at the moment. We thought FW would be a decent niche for our size, but there aren't very attractive objectives for us to achieve as a group, ya know, a team. As the ihubs become vulnerable at nebulous times, etc. When the warfare control is pretty much defined by how much idling you can do in a system's plexes, its not a very attractive venue.

You are very right. That is a problem with faction war and it always has been there. You can read threads from 2008 about this same problem. Now lots of new players(or at least new to faction war) have come here and are figuring out the same thing.

That is why allot of us who like allot of pvp are trying to propose things that will maike it you are not idle in that plex.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Andreus Ixiris

Center for Advanced Studies

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 6,068

#66 - 2012-06-21 22:18:55 UTC | Edited by: ISD Dosnix

Lucia Denniard wrote:

#2 - Defensive plexing is risk free and needs no real investment. A t1 frigate alt can defensive plex with impunity, faces no immediate threat, and ship losses are trivial. This only serves to stymie the rate at which systems come under threat, and fighting for these systems.

*snip*

non constructive post deleted

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ISD DOsnix

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

jimmy rustler

Doomheim

Likes received: 0

#67 - 2012-06-21 23:00:47 UTC | Edited by: jimmy rustler

Andreus Ixiris wrote:

Lucia Denniard wrote:

This was all I needed to read to know that Confederation of xXPizzaXx has absolutely no idea how FW actually works.

i was under the impression that you can go sit in a friendly plex in any ship, have the rats protecting you, and increase the timer on it for your enemies. or complete it and have your system control go up. while at no risk of losing your ****** frigate if you're paying the slightest amount of attention.

please enlighten us, wise one. how does FW actually work.

Duke Dantez

Tribal Liberation Force

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 23

#68 - 2012-06-22 00:41:17 UTC

zero9300 wrote:

edit: you said it must be my error in not being able to "force" fights, which is ad hominem garbage, and I suggest that anyone you manage to catch is a statement of their error, not any skill in "the chaser"

I never said it was anyone's error in not being able to force a fight or evade a fight. Luck is sometimes involved and sometimes you can exploit certain behaviors that can get you a fight when most can't.

I just said you are wrong in saying that it is imposible to force a fight. I never said "I am 733t and i force fights all the time and every time" Roll

jimmy rustler

Doomheim

Likes received: 0

#69 - 2012-06-22 01:33:47 UTC

Duke Dantez wrote:

zero9300 wrote:

it's entirely your error if you can't evade a fight when you're in a frigate that aligns in <3.1 seconds. also i feel we have different definitions of the word 'force'.

Black Eagle1 2,982
X Gallentius Black Eagle1 Likes received: 2,982	#70 - 2012-06-22 01:37:20 UTC Shadow Adanza wrote: Agreed. But the other person has to want the fight as well. A good number of them, they even get a sniff of you out they go. It's more effective to sit in an offensive plex and wait for someone to come to you. Same with being at "top belt" or anywhere else.

Muad 'dib

State War Academy

Caldari State

Likes received: 1,412

#71 - 2012-06-22 07:15:18 UTC

while plexing is super boring and pvp basicly little to do with it unless a systems is close to being captured, it is esspessially stupid when a system is bugged and only one type of plex spawns all day....

this needs fixed and not just met with a 3 day late petition response that says 'we cant do anything wait till DT' like we ddint know that anyway and its the time spent playing that is time we cant get back :/

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.

Hans Jagerblitzen

Ice Fire Warriors

Likes received: 4,171

#72 - 2012-06-22 07:58:31 UTC | Edited by: Hans Jagerblitzen

Muad 'dib wrote:

I've been bugging CCP incessantly about the plex bug. Twisted

I gave them all the details and walked em through it and they've finally been able to duplicate it, a patch should hopefully be out soon for the old-school plex spawn bug where you can intentionally glitch a plex out of spawning. It's about time I say!

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Shadow Adanza

Gold Crest Salvage

Likes received: 179

#73 - 2012-06-22 08:06:46 UTC

X Gallentius wrote:

Shadow Adanza wrote:

Agreed. But the other person has to want the fight as well. A good number of them, they even get a sniff of you out they go.
It's more effective to sit in an offensive plex and wait for someone to come to you.

Same with being at "top belt" or anywhere else.

True. I think it's more the situation that affects the view on it, though. I think a defensive plex... being what it is, for whatever reason, causes me to view it differently.

Are you suggesting coconuts migrate?

Sui'Djin

State War Academy

Caldari State

Likes received: 14

#74 - 2012-06-22 11:12:29 UTC

Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:

Lucia Denniard wrote:

I don't see why we need NPC in plexes at all. This is old game design that was supposed to enhance immersion. FW is supposed to be PvP, and I would like to get rid of PvE as far as plexes are concerned. I am aware that this means a complete overhaul of plex mechanics, but let's do this now and avoid further work on NPC-balancing-issues . There are already some decent ideas how this might work (notification which plexes are being attacked, modified button mechanics etc). Unfortunetely i can't provide the the link to that thread right now Roll

.

I honestly do not want plexes to be converted to 'incursions lite'. This is something CCP should do to missions to make them mor interesting / challenging.