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Goons 4x4ing through the Sandbox - Market Manipulation on a Grand Scale

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RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#781 - 2012-06-22 06:59:52 UTC
gulftobay wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Did CCP reverse the transactions when P.I. was introduced, and a not entirely dissimilar "feature" - of which they were also pre-warned - led to people making sums of ISK in the same league? (Albeit the total was spread out over more players)

IIRC they only reversed those made AFTER the publications of the exploit notice.


What was the scale of that fiasco?


Bigger. In part because it took no effort and it was public knowledge.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#782 - 2012-06-22 07:01:37 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
The obvious solution is to ban all goons forever.

Conspiracy theory says that this is also part of the scheme to game the results of the investigation:

The fact is that only a few players actively participated in this exploit, not the entire alliance. Thus, only those specific players are likely to be targeted for whatever disciplinary action(s), if any, that CCP chooses to make. That the players belong to Goonswarm has no bearing on this matter, and is not likely to figure into CCP's decision.

But, by casting the crime as yet-another Goons vs. everyone (incl. CCP) issue, it is a slick attempt at trying to place CCP in a no-win situation, where, irregardless of their decision, they will be accused of either (a) punishing these players, just because they are Goons, or (b) letting these players get away with breaking the rules, just because they are Goons.

Perhaps it might even leverage CCP to consider a "reasonable" compromise, ie. seizing the most easily tracked ill-gotten ISK/assets, but allowing the perps to keep any "laundered" gains, and without any bans - temp or otherwise - needing to be issued.

Clever, very clever....
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#783 - 2012-06-22 07:01:47 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
gulftobay wrote:
Now that the 'pro' GSF team is here, any thoughts on what would be a reasonable solution to this mess?


Taking the ISK back as already stated by a dev.


What ISK?


I dunno, maybe read the ******* thread.


I did. What Isk was created to be taken away? I saw metric shitloads of ISK being destroyed. And some insignificant amount created from insurance payouts. If you'd like CCP to take away the involved insurance payouts and can provide a rationale for doing so, then by all means.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
gulftobay
Mesotopia
#784 - 2012-06-22 07:03:21 UTC
Xutech wrote:
Math is not an exploit.

The fact is, for most of you, the explanation for what they did is so complex, it's indistinguishable from magic.

Or, in this case, "exploits".


Hard to say it wasn't an exploit when the gsf PR department admitted as much in the first post.
Zibu 81
Zi'Corp
#785 - 2012-06-22 07:05:45 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Ituhata Saken wrote:
Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,


At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. Don’t be That Guy.



By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.



Serious question Sreegs, is this kind of thing actually cheating ? (ie against the rules) I read their document a couple of nights ago and though sure it really did blow massive holes through the eve game mechanics in order to make a giant profit - was it actually illegal ?




I don't really want to say just yet, but basically if you know you're using a system in a certain way in order to gain massive resources, whether you're taking advantage of a design flaw or not and whether we classify it as an exploit or not we're still well within our rights to fix the glitch. I'm not going to comment on what we do or don't do at this point because I don't prejudge the results of investigations.


I'll just burn my hours for plex to say that this could be seen as soon as CCP has posted the dev blog about the changes.

I've even posted about it on a public forum:


And no, I didn't do anything about it as I've been unsubscribed, but I still enjoy a bit of Eve drama :)
Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#786 - 2012-06-22 07:06:05 UTC
I am torn on this. Of course I don't want goonies to keep the iskies because it inflates the hell out of my iskies and everyone else's. :P

On the other hand this was an obvious hole of bad design by CCP. I don't mean the initial bug but the core mechanic of rewarding based on average price market of cargo and offering the person reaping this reward in LPs the opportunity to redeem at 1/4 the LP cost at a fully upgrafed system, allowing for buying even more stuff blah blah blah.

They made and advertised (in the dev blog) a big arse closed loophole of infinite isk. It was there for all to see before the patch went live. Most people did not see the opportunity or did not pursue it (my corp thinks FW is for nooblars Ugh)... How does that entittle us to punish goonies for goign ahead with it.

How can CCP punish this activity after having advertised the possibility in their dev blog (determined as they were to "reverse the value of null sec v low sec v FW to put FW at the apex"). Well done CCP FW is now at the apex as intended. OopsOopsOops

I dunno hats off t[o goons I guess but I am very dissapointed with CCP for such a cavallier approach... +20% in LP costs from fully upgraded systems would have been incntive enough... what was the point in going for a 400% incentice ffs...

Ham fisted & CCP these days a match made in heaven it seems...

It is wrong for goons to have aquired all that isk for subzero risk and effort but not their wrong, CCP's booboo rather.
Zalifer Esepula
State War Academy
Caldari State
#787 - 2012-06-22 07:14:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Zalifer Esepula
I love all the people talking about this as if it was an exploit or something "the goons" will get punished for :D

FW kill are a valid tactic for getting LP. LP store is a valid place to buy stuff. Market manipulation, while oft complained about, is within the rules of the game, and is not using a broken mechanic or external program.

All of this is legit and ingenious.

EDIT : also, ISK sinks are what the game needs right now. The correct way to fix this is the patch the hole, and not worry too much about it. If you want to throw untested mechanics into a sandbox, you need to be willing to accept the results. The entire idea of eve is to twist everything to your advantage.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#788 - 2012-06-22 07:15:22 UTC
Crellion wrote:
It is wrong for goons to have aquired all that isk for subzero risk and effort but not their wrong, CCP's booboo rather.


It's far from being "zero risk or effort." It's high-effort because it involved an insane amount of planning and number crunching. It's high-risk because, well, if CCP isn't very happy with what happened, at best, they could take away the profits made from this, or at worst, hand out bans (which doesn't seem likely, but it's still possible) - and there's the whole risk of all their numbers being wrong or the whole plan going south if they ran into an unforeseen obstacle in the process. And then there's the fact that CCP will most likely be /much/ more careful when working on future changes for the game to prevent enterprising individuals from finding gaping holes like this to jump through.

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Wasse
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#789 - 2012-06-22 07:19:12 UTC
I really fail to understand how or why anyone could call this an exploit of a bug.

If I understand this right....

Amount of LP was tied to the 'price estimator'. The price estimator was based on a 90 day moving average. Because of this, they could manipulate the market, and get items at a cheaper cost to blow up.

On top of that, LP was also given for the value of stuff that dropped.

There is no bug here. There is.. bad design. Bad thinking. Bad Product Management. Bad game design. But no bug. And if there is a bug (say, giving LP for stuff dropped), the parties involved would have no way to know it was a bug.

And.. can you really punish someone for exploiting bad game design? Well, where do you start? Where do you stop? I know the joke has been thrown out there about tech, but you could parallel the same case there.

For the person somewhere (and probably multiple people) - that said this is why they don't like EvE - I'm sorry to hear that. Personally, this is why I _like_ EvE. Even if I'm not in a position to pull something off like this myself, the fact such a thing is possible, is amazing. What other game could you do this in?

Again, something that should be stressed here - they did not create isk. All they did was take isk (and minerals) out of the game. They also flooded the market and lowered prices on some things. (which sadly includes Minmtar Starship Engineering course, of which I had 3 characters with 6 research agents on. Oh well). Doesn't that help the game? Break the stagnation.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#790 - 2012-06-22 07:19:16 UTC
gulftobay wrote:
Xutech wrote:
Math is not an exploit.

The fact is, for most of you, the explanation for what they did is so complex, it's indistinguishable from magic.

Or, in this case, "exploits".


Hard to say it wasn't an exploit when the gsf PR department admitted as much in the first post.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artistic_license

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#791 - 2012-06-22 07:20:33 UTC
Crellion wrote:
I am torn on this. Of course I don't want goonies to keep the iskies because it inflates the hell out of my iskies and everyone else's. :P


No Isk was created. A metric buttload of Isk was destroyed. Your isk is worth more than it was before.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
AS Patriot
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#792 - 2012-06-22 07:20:58 UTC
So for once you actually did something usefull and located an exploit in game mechanics..

I gotta say.. Thank you very much for bringing balance into game...

Now could you convince ccp to work on pvp and gate mechanics? :P
Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#793 - 2012-06-22 07:22:51 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Crellion wrote:
It is wrong for goons to have aquired all that isk for subzero risk and effort but not their wrong, CCP's booboo rather.


It's far from being "zero risk or effort." It's high-effort because it involved an insane amount of planning and number crunching. It's high-risk because, well, if CCP isn't very happy with what happened, at best, they could take away the profits made from this, or at worst, hand out bans (which doesn't seem likely, but it's still possible) - and there's the whole risk of all their numbers being wrong or the whole plan going south if they ran into an unforeseen obstacle in the process. And then there's the fact that CCP will most likely be /much/ more careful when working on future changes for the game to prevent enterprising individuals from finding gaping holes like this to jump through.


(a) hope you read the rest of what I posted too

(b) it is virtually zero risk and effort compared to the risk and effort involved in making a few trillion isk in other ways.

The problem of course is not the people that did this but the CCP dev plan that includes LP rewards for cargo items, at market price and the possibility to redeem at 1/4 th the cost...
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#794 - 2012-06-22 07:41:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Antisocial Malkavian
AS Patriot wrote:
So for once you actually did something usefull and located an exploit in game mechanics..

I gotta say.. Thank you very much for bringing balance into game...

Now could you convince ccp to work on pvp and gate mechanics? :P


EVE isnt meant to be fair

Zalifer Esepula wrote:
I love all the people talking about this as if it was an exploit or something "the goons" will get punished for :D


True, the corp doesnt get punished when these things happen. Like Bob didnt get punished for T20 or the POS Bowling thing
(but theyre not the same thing in this case, just the punishment isnt visited on the corp in the past)

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#795 - 2012-06-22 07:46:00 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Nikodiemus wrote:
The Goons were not really the first to think of this... It was a pretty obvious exploit for people that trade or deal with the market a lot. Thing is, manipulating game mechanics is different than manipulating the market and is bad mmkay? Ruins the games longevity. Props for actually taking the initiative and doing the work to pull it off though. Hope CCP remedies your gains though.

I would love CCP Dr. EyjoG to do a write up on this at some point.... or just hear his comments during the next fanfest. ^.^


We were the only ones to report it from what we can tell. So I think that bears remembering.


You did not report the other pseudo-exploit that can still be done as I write...
I found out about it yesterday about 1 hour before this thread was posted. I suppose CCP's code has multiple vulnerabilities...

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Signal11th
#796 - 2012-06-22 07:48:37 UTC
Credit where credit is due, well done chaps!

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#797 - 2012-06-22 07:51:58 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
gulftobay wrote:
Now that the 'pro' GSF team is here, any thoughts on what would be a reasonable solution to this mess?


Taking the ISK back as already stated by a dev.


What ISK?


I dunno, maybe read the *snip* thread.

Post edited due to personal attack
ISD Dosnix

You seem to be having a problem fathoming a minor detail here.
1) No isk was created.
2) No isk was created.
3) No isk was created.
4) No isk was created.
5) No isk was created.
6) No isk was created.
7) No isk was created.
8) No isk was created.
9) No isk was created.
10) No isk was created.

Is it in yet?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#798 - 2012-06-22 07:58:45 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:


Is it in yet?


Thats what she said

had to

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
#799 - 2012-06-22 08:05:50 UTC
Best dev blog ever.
Mme Pinkerton
#800 - 2012-06-22 08:08:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Mme Pinkerton
Crellion wrote:
I am torn on this. Of course I don't want goonies to keep the iskies because it inflates the hell out of my iskies and everyone else's. :P

they created LP from thin air, not ISK (they actually destroyed ISK when cashing out the LP).

Any ISK that ended up in their wallets was taken from other players.

The amount of ISK in circulation decreased as a result of their activities.


Wasse wrote:
I really fail to understand how or why anyone could call this an exploit of a bug.

there are bugs in game design and there are bugs in the implementation of game design.

this is one of the former.

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