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Making nullsec vibrant again

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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#841 - 2012-06-22 03:06:49 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

It again comes to the point of people parking characters outside of highsec to hold assets while continuing to to make isk in highsec. This isn't just nullsec residents, but also highsec residents to avoid paying taxes for themselves. If this is the isk you are funneling to null directly then I see it being minimized greatly.

That may be true but there are others who are so risk averse that they would not set foot in low-sec or null for any reason whatsoever. Not even if there was a savings to be had by doing so. From my own point of view, I would just pay the tax and go about my merry way.

EVE Online: So real that null security stations are being used as Tax Havens.

Great.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Enkill Eridos
Draconian Enforcers Available To Hire
ORPHANS OF EVE 2
#842 - 2012-06-22 03:15:25 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
Enkill Eridos wrote:
Because honestly solo play was never made in eve to be able to beat group play. It's the way it is and the way I think null should be. We are playing an mmo and one about space battles. I haven't read or seen a sci fi series that one single person was able to beat everything. Even Ellen Ripley had help.

If I was that naive and thought a FORTRESS OF SOLITUDE in null sec was possible with no possibility of being bashed..Well I would be a very big fracking moron now wouldn't I?

My post wasn't addressed at you, unless that Uni guy is your alt?



Sorry I saw the E since I posted something that could be construed as the same thing. Sorry.,

Are you a miner/mission runner that is tired of being ganked? Do you want to play EVE and never PVP, but you have a list of players that is stopping you from doing that? Don't QQ pay someone to do your PEW PEW for you. Now offering reasonable rates. EVE mail me for more details.
Enkill Eridos
Draconian Enforcers Available To Hire
ORPHANS OF EVE 2
#843 - 2012-06-22 03:16:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Enkill Eridos
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Is this a market tax or something like increasing of manufacturing fees?


It's a tax on the combined estimated market value generated by the UI. No more hoarding and stockpiling. It is also optional but if you don't pay it, CONCORD will take no action on you behalf until your back taxes are paid.

Its just an idea I was thinking about and the economy can always use more sinks.



+1 love it. Then I read it. I like the idea, but I think a better idea would be to charge players with a negative sec status to a kind of entry fee into high sec. Since gankers make isk with very little actual risk or loss of isk. All it takes is an orca alt and that ganker just picked up your cargohold and salvaged your wreck. Since it seems CCP wont be adding a way for capsuleers to become space cops..Which would be fun, the gankers need opposition. It must be boring always ganking miners with no player trying to pop them and their pods. Even though what I wrote will not change anything in null sec it is a thought on this idea.

I don't think having a tax like this would really make people want to go to null sec. Just bring more tears to the forums.

Are you a miner/mission runner that is tired of being ganked? Do you want to play EVE and never PVP, but you have a list of players that is stopping you from doing that? Don't QQ pay someone to do your PEW PEW for you. Now offering reasonable rates. EVE mail me for more details.
Incindir Mauser
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#844 - 2012-06-22 03:50:10 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Incindir Mauser wrote:
Entertaining possibility.

Care to expound on the idea?


in w-space you can collapse wormholes that have Bad People on the other side, somebody can't light a cyno on top of you and drop supercaps and you generally have to probe targets down rather than simply ping-ponging between anoms until you find something to kill

oh and you can't simply find a w-space system with NPC kills by clicking on the map

so taking away local in nullsec to "make it more like wormholes" is goddamn dumb idea


Actually I was asking about you ideas on shutting down gates in null.

I don't see why not. Like you said that wormholes have what amounts to a load limit. Wormhole dwellers often crash them by moving large ships through. If you control the space what's to say you couldn't lock a gate out for a few hours? It would force new developments in strategy. It'd be even better than a bubble. Trap a fleet, scan them down and then pounce on them!

Interesting dynamic there. I like these ideas.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#845 - 2012-06-22 03:56:16 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
That may be true but there are others who are so risk averse that they would not set foot in low-sec or null for any reason whatsoever. Not even if there was a savings to be had by doing so. From my own point of view, I would just pay the tax and go about my merry way.

Holding alts risking nothing more than a noodship is a small risk to take when faced with forever paying taxes for those with several billion in assets.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#846 - 2012-06-22 04:12:56 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
That may be true but there are others who are so risk averse that they would not set foot in low-sec or null for any reason whatsoever. Not even if there was a savings to be had by doing so. From my own point of view, I would just pay the tax and go about my merry way.

Holding alts risking nothing more than a noodship is a small risk to take when faced with forever paying taxes for those with several billion in assets.

Holding alts, no longer just holding your supercapital :)

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#847 - 2012-06-22 04:15:18 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Supercapitals being built at the pace they are today is an issue, but I'm not going to say "logistics is too easy in general" as long as deklein isn't even able to sustain its own ammo consumption pr day, whereas a single hisec system can. Fix industry in nullsec, watch it actually blossom and become a healthy thing, then you can think about nerfing logistics.


This. I used to thinkt he same as Mara does, but the simple fact is that 0.0 industry is so totally gimped that cutting off the logistics pipeline would wipe out sov 0.0 within a month.


So read the rest of my posts :P

The things I would encourage are nerfing NPC refineries, buffing POS refineries so that all refining takes time, but POS refineries can refine anything, more efficiently than NPC stations. Ideally there would not be "POS" vs "Outpost" vs "Station" since one thing would start as a small reactor in space with a hangar and refinery attached, gradually growing into something bigger with market services, concourse, captains quarters, hangars for caps and supercaps, and all of it being absolutely destructible.

But I agree with the basic principle of buffing industry before nerfing logistics, though I would do it cyclically: a small buff to POSes, a small nerf to item volumes, small buff to POSes, small nerf to volumes, etc. Ideally a 425mm Railgun should take up about 2000m3, so a series of nerfs from 50m3 to 100, 200, 400, 1000, 2000 would be the appropriate path, while simultaneously buffing POS refineries from 75% cap to 100% cap, then reducing cycle time, then allowing multiple items to be shoved into it for refining. At the same time, reduce NPC refinery efficiency by 30% of their current capacity. Perfect refining should be in capsuleer hands only. Then as the cherry on the cake, add restrictions on hangar volumes in all hangars. Add restrictions on the number of orders that a station can host. Allow NPC corps to improve their facilities by having capsuleers pay for upgrades a la Faction Warfare. I like that system,

These would apply across the board, hisec, lowsec, nullsec, w-space.

Certain structures would be limited to being anchorable in nullsec and not w-space. And then that sovereignty thing: I would get rid of everything except the token of the TCU broadcasting the claim. No sovereignty levels: if you anchor a cyno jammer today, it takes a month to finish construction.

But the starting point is fixing those POS refineries. That can be done before the POS overhaul, so anyone from CCP reading this please make sure youmhave plans to release some stuff using old-POS mechanics rather than saving up everything for one huge expansion?

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#848 - 2012-06-22 04:20:25 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
This. I used to thinkt he same as Mara does, but the simple fact is that 0.0 industry is so totally gimped that cutting off the logistics pipeline would wipe out sov 0.0 within a month.

So read the rest of my posts :P

I hope CCP does, otherwise it's "delete JBs". Fixed!

As nullsec becomes pretty empty...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#849 - 2012-06-22 04:25:14 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
This. I used to thinkt he same as Mara does, but the simple fact is that 0.0 industry is so totally gimped that cutting off the logistics pipeline would wipe out sov 0.0 within a month.

So read the rest of my posts :P

I hope CCP does, otherwise it's "delete JBs". Fixed!

As nullsec becomes pretty empty...


Nullsec was working fine before JBs, why would removing them break JBs? But that is a side issue: where in my previous posts did I say "remove JBs"?

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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#850 - 2012-06-22 04:37:12 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
This. I used to thinkt he same as Mara does, but the simple fact is that 0.0 industry is so totally gimped that cutting off the logistics pipeline would wipe out sov 0.0 within a month.

So read the rest of my posts :P

I hope CCP does, otherwise it's "delete JBs". Fixed!

As nullsec becomes pretty empty...


Nullsec was working fine before JBs, why would removing them break JBs? But that is a side issue: where in my previous posts did I say "remove JBs"?

I was referring to the first poster's "cutting off the logistics pipeline".

It's a very common suggestion, along with "remove Jump Freighters" "remove Titan bridging" and of course our favorite "remove local." It's all about deleting that evil code...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Delen Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#851 - 2012-06-22 04:38:17 UTC
Enkill Eridos wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Is this a market tax or something like increasing of manufacturing fees?


It's a tax on the combined estimated market value generated by the UI. No more hoarding and stockpiling. It is also optional but if you don't pay it, CONCORD will take no action on you behalf until your back taxes are paid.

Its just an idea I was thinking about and the economy can always use more sinks.



+1 love it. Then I read it. I like the idea, but I think a better idea would be to charge players with a negative sec status to a kind of entry fee into high sec. Since gankers make isk with very little actual risk or loss of isk. All it takes is an orca alt and that ganker just picked up your cargohold and salvaged your wreck. Since it seems CCP wont be adding a way for capsuleers to become space cops..Which would be fun, the gankers need opposition. It must be boring always ganking miners with no player trying to pop them and their pods. Even though what I wrote will not change anything in null sec it is a thought on this idea.

I don't think having a tax like this would really make people want to go to null sec. Just bring more tears to the forums.


I just wrote a craptonne on the CONCORD tax idea, but then lost it. Damn forum eats my posts - I have to copy everything before pressing post, just in case I lose it..

So, short version..

1) not keen on being taxed on assets. This is stuff I've already paid for. Instead, how about something added to station transactions in hisec space? It'd also make sense to have a lower tax in a 0.5 station than in a 1.0 (and would let people choose a level of risk/reward that suited them).

2) As I see it, my tax is basically paying for CONCORD to destroy my attacker's ship after they've blown me up. That's actually not a lot of use to me. Theoretically, the threat of this happening should put off attackers, but the reality is that it's simply seen as a cost of doing business for the ganker - it's an entirely predictable part of the gank. Burn Jita pretty much proves that it's predictable to the point of ineffectiveness. The mechanics of a suicide gank should be less predictable, but with player skill able to mitigate the unpredictability to some extent. Not sure quite how a system like that can be implemented though.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#852 - 2012-06-22 04:44:55 UTC
Delen Ormand wrote:
1) not keen on being taxed on assets. This is stuff I've already paid for. Instead, how about something added to station transactions in hisec space? It'd also make sense to have a lower tax in a 0.5 station than in a 1.0 (and would let people choose a level of risk/reward that suited them).

Several governments (and CONCORD would love to join them) enjoy the income brought in by property taxes.

CCP would probably find the idea of an isk sink of such a nature quite appealing.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Delen Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#853 - 2012-06-22 04:44:57 UTC
While I'm here..

I put up an idea a while back. Discussion got derailed very quickly, so I've very little idea as to people's thoughts and opinions. Anyone?


Heh.. why do I feel like I'm begging for attention? :P
Delen Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#854 - 2012-06-22 04:57:27 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Delen Ormand wrote:
1) not keen on being taxed on assets. This is stuff I've already paid for. Instead, how about something added to station transactions in hisec space? It'd also make sense to have a lower tax in a 0.5 station than in a 1.0 (and would let people choose a level of risk/reward that suited them).

Several governments (and CONCORD would love to join them) enjoy the income brought in by property taxes.

CCP would probably find the idea of an isk sink of such a nature quite appealing.


It's a good point. But property tax applies to houses owned rather than property generally. In hisec, I don't own my own house. I live in a station, which is much more like being a renter. The property tax should be the owner's responsibility. But there's a couple of other things which I think would need to be worked out in more detail before an asset tax would work, stuff like, when and how often would it be calculated? Would it penalise traders who have stuff dotted around all over the place? How would it work when I have large volumes of goods coming in and out of my possession constantly? And so on.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#855 - 2012-06-22 05:32:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
Delen Ormand wrote:

I put up an idea a while back


Nicolo Da'Vicenza has already answered that :)

Cascade Imminent has a mining license scheme, which may or may not be legit: I have not been out there myself to answer the important question, “what is the catch.” (besides being in Detorid, and being under FAILA command)

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Delen Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#856 - 2012-06-22 05:43:56 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Delen Ormand wrote:

I put up an idea a while back


Nicolo Da'Vicenza has already answered that :)

Cascade Imminent has a mining license scheme, which may or may not be legit: I have not been out there myself to answer the important question, “what is the catch.” (besides being in Detorid, and being under FAILA command)


I'm suggesting that this kind of thing should be brought into the game itself, rather than being implmented with external websites and whatnot. It should function more like an actual contract with alterable terms - my payment to the alliance may be in x amount of ore rather than ISK. The contract should also be flexible enough to cover other careers too - the ability to create similar contracts for traders, explorers etc should be possible within the system.

One reason it should be brought in-game is because it will have some legitimacy. As soon as people heear about licenses in Eve, they think "scam". Using the in-game contract system means that a corp can automatically be set as blue to the alliance and it may not be possible for the alliance to change this status manually (not yet sure if the alliance would need to reserve the right to manually change it or not).
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#857 - 2012-06-22 05:46:47 UTC
Delen Ormand wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Delen Ormand wrote:

I put up an idea a while back


Nicolo Da'Vicenza has already answered that :)

Cascade Imminent has a mining license scheme, which may or may not be legit: I have not been out there myself to answer the important question, “what is the catch.” (besides being in Detorid, and being under FAILA command)


I'm suggesting that this kind of thing should be brought into the game itself, rather than being implmented with external websites and whatnot. It should function more like an actual contract with alterable terms - my payment to the alliance may be in x amount of ore rather than ISK. The contract should also be flexible enough to cover other careers too - the ability to create similar contracts for traders, explorers etc should be possible within the system.

One reason it should be brought in-game is because it will have some legitimacy. As soon as people heear about licenses in Eve, they think "scam". Using the in-game contract system means that a corp can automatically be set as blue to the alliance and it may not be possible for the alliance to change this status manually (not yet sure if the alliance would need to reserve the right to manually change it or not).

xXxAwoxUxXx

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#858 - 2012-06-22 05:53:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Alavaria Fera wrote:

xXxAwoxUxXx

My favorite Southern pet story was when Circle-of-Two threw their 'landlords' Ushra'Khan out of their own space the second -A- was busy with the DRF.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#859 - 2012-06-22 05:55:23 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:

xXxAwoxUxXx

My favorite Southern pet story was when Circle-of-Two threw their 'landlords' Ushra'Khan out of their own space the second -A- was busy with the DRF.

Oh.

They should have started renting the space to Ushra'Khan instead. Surprise!

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#860 - 2012-06-22 05:59:05 UTC
Delen Ormand wrote:
One reason it should be brought in-game is because it will have some legitimacy. As soon as people heear about licenses in Eve, they think "scam". Using the in-game contract system means …


First, the system you are suggesting would fall under "treaties" which was never delivered as part of the Dominion expansion.

Second, there is no "legitimacy" inherent in game-provided contracts. With the current contract system we have PLEX scams, courier contracts that will never be delivered, Carbon being passed off as a Charon, etc.

Treaties would be wonderful if implemented correctly, because alliances could clearly distinguish between "members", "pets" and "renters," and taxation could be done without too much hassle. Treaties will not stop people scamming others and blowing each other up.

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