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Inferno: The Endless ISK Fountian Exposed
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Aldrith Shutaq
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
#1 - 2012-06-21 19:03:42 UTC
I'll just leave this here.

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu
Dave stark
#2 - 2012-06-21 19:15:02 UTC
hate to break it to you....

go see page 1 of the general forum, the thread is nearly 20 pages long. guess nobody invited you to the party?
Aldrith Shutaq
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
#3 - 2012-06-21 19:19:20 UTC
Ah, sorry about that. Thanks for the heads up!

Still though, it's relevant to this forum also. I guess if someone wants a more quiet place to discuss the market impact, ect.

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu
Dave stark
#4 - 2012-06-21 19:20:15 UTC
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2012-06-21 20:26:41 UTC
more like the endless isk sink.

.
Tom Hagen
Twilight Empire
#6 - 2012-06-21 20:45:00 UTC
I can admit I get annoyed at things like this. But if I should be honest, what bugs me the most is that I wasn't part of it Twisted

I wasn't aware of that items in your cargo hold was included. Only by removing that shouldn't that fix the problem?
After all isn't it the ship we are fighting and not what it have in the cargo hold?

I can also see both CCP thinking about taking action and players thinking they should.
Clearly this wasn't working as intended for CCP (after all they changed it to stop it) and as such we can argue about if it is an exploit or not.
But if CCP decide to take action, how about Pax Amaria?
Since they changed it asap the effect of it got widely know, it didn't work as intended either and we can have a similar argument if that was an exploit or not.

Even if it sucks and Goons most likely will be able to control the market for a long time.
I would say let them keep it, otherwise we will have a lot of grey zones where someone always will feel mistreated.
The Goons used the system as countless others have done before them, insurance anyone, and yes CCP changed it because it didn't work as intended (but did they take away anything from the pilots involved).

Anyone else think otherwise?
Ezra Tair
Doomheim
#7 - 2012-06-21 20:53:36 UTC
Tom Hagen wrote:
I can admit I get annoyed at things like this. But if I should be honest, what bugs me the most is that I wasn't part of it Twisted

I wasn't aware of that items in your cargo hold was included. Only by removing that shouldn't that fix the problem?
After all isn't it the ship we are fighting and not what it have in the cargo hold?

I can also see both CCP thinking about taking action and players thinking they should.
Clearly this wasn't working as intended for CCP (after all they changed it to stop it) and as such we can argue about if it is an exploit or not.
But if CCP decide to take action, how about Pax Amaria?
Since they changed it asap the effect of it got widely know, it didn't work as intended either and we can have a similar argument if that was an exploit or not.

Even if it sucks and Goons most likely will be able to control the market for a long time.
I would say let them keep it, otherwise we will have a lot of grey zones where someone always will feel mistreated.
The Goons used the system as countless others have done before them, insurance anyone, and yes CCP changed it because it didn't work as intended (but did they take away anything from the pilots involved).

Anyone else think otherwise?



I kinda want to see them use all the isk to crash some critial part of the market, like push the prices for minerals or moongo even further up or something.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#8 - 2012-06-21 21:52:33 UTC
Ezra Tair wrote:
Tom Hagen wrote:
I can admit I get annoyed at things like this. But if I should be honest, what bugs me the most is that I wasn't part of it Twisted

I wasn't aware of that items in your cargo hold was included. Only by removing that shouldn't that fix the problem?
After all isn't it the ship we are fighting and not what it have in the cargo hold?

I can also see both CCP thinking about taking action and players thinking they should.
Clearly this wasn't working as intended for CCP (after all they changed it to stop it) and as such we can argue about if it is an exploit or not.
But if CCP decide to take action, how about Pax Amaria?
Since they changed it asap the effect of it got widely know, it didn't work as intended either and we can have a similar argument if that was an exploit or not.

Even if it sucks and Goons most likely will be able to control the market for a long time.
I would say let them keep it, otherwise we will have a lot of grey zones where someone always will feel mistreated.
The Goons used the system as countless others have done before them, insurance anyone, and yes CCP changed it because it didn't work as intended (but did they take away anything from the pilots involved).

Anyone else think otherwise?



I kinda want to see them use all the isk to crash some critial part of the market, like push the prices for minerals or moongo even further up or something.

That would be amusing, but until CCP come to a decision concerning removing the ISK it probably wouldn't be wise.

Personally I'd be inclined to let them keep most of it, but I have a feeling CCP are going to be pushed into responding by the sheer scale of the manipulation and the existance of that GD thread. What will be interesting is whether or not they decide to give negative wallets to goons members who accepted the ISK and spent it.

Either way I wouldn't want to be in CCP's position making a decision on this. And it was ballsy of goons to invest so heavily (to the point of cashing out their high ends) in a way likely to be deemed an exploit.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#9 - 2012-06-21 22:30:32 UTC  |  Edited by: corestwo
Simi Kusoni wrote:
I kinda want to see them use all the isk to crash some critial part of the market, like push the prices for minerals or moongo even further up or something.

That would be amusing, but until CCP come to a decision concerning removing the ISK it probably wouldn't be wise.

Personally I'd be inclined to let them keep most of it, but I have a feeling CCP are going to be pushed into responding by the sheer scale of the manipulation and the existance of that GD thread. What will be interesting is whether or not they decide to give negative wallets to goons members who accepted the ISK and spent it.

Either way I wouldn't want to be in CCP's position making a decision on this. And it was ballsy of goons to invest so heavily (to the point of cashing out their high ends) in a way likely to be deemed an exploit.[/quote]
Have you read the GD thread? Contrary to our expectations, the vast majority of posters are congratulating us and whatnot, there's very few tears & tinfoil posts. I mean hell, we even had Jade Constantine congratulate us, of all people. The overall response is very positive - I'd almost expect CCP to see a non-goon backlash if they neg-walleted us or something.

Regarding ballsy, only four or five of us were involved, so its not like we were gambling alliance money and assets on this. Strictly a private venture. And speaking to high ends specifically, I blew up my zydrine for what was the equivalent of selling it for something like 2k per unit. Pretty much a no-brainer, really.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Gaia Ma'chello
Photosynth
#10 - 2012-06-21 22:57:08 UTC
Eliminating counting cargo would not be sufficient. All you need to is find a module that no one uses or trades, but can be manufactured. Self-trade the price way up, fit them to you ship, explode.

There are little used hulls that would allow for the same thing even if only hulls would count. What would be needed is some better way to decide the true isk value of an item other than averaging market sales. I assume CCP already has such a system to prevent the re-occurrence of insurance fraud. No idea why it was not used.
Anya Ohaya
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#11 - 2012-06-21 23:37:49 UTC
Well I was able to buy a lot of cheap datacores, lowering my invention costs and boosting my T2 profit margins, so I can't say I'm unhappy.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#12 - 2012-06-21 23:51:55 UTC
corestwo wrote:
Have you read the GD thread? Contrary to our expectations, the vast majority of posters are congratulating us and whatnot, there's very few tears & tinfoil posts. I mean hell, we even had Jade Constantine congratulate us, of all people. The overall response is very positive - I'd almost expect CCP to see a non-goon backlash if they neg-walleted us or something.

I must admit I've only read the first few pages, and then skipped to the dev post, so all I saw was goons posting followed by Jade rambling some incoherent babble about how goons earned her 8.7b.

corestwo wrote:
Regarding ballsy, only four or five of us were involved, so its not like we were gambling alliance money and assets on this. Strictly a private venture. And speaking to high ends specifically, I blew up my zydrine for what was the equivalent of selling it for something like 2k per unit. Pretty much a no-brainer, really.

Ahh yeah, that's not that bad with personal assets. Sorry, the GD thread made it sound like this was alliance mineral investments being liquidated.

I'm still not sure I'd have cashed in my Zydrine that way though, I'd probably have settled solely for destroying items I'd moved the price average on. Just saying it was pretty brave Lol

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#13 - 2012-06-21 23:56:44 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
I'm still not sure I'd have cashed in my Zydrine that way though, I'd probably have settled solely for destroying items I'd moved the price average on. Just saying it was pretty brave Lol


Had to have a seed of some kind, might as well get under assets that are currently badly undervalued.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#14 - 2012-06-22 00:04:15 UTC
corestwo wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
I'm still not sure I'd have cashed in my Zydrine that way though, I'd probably have settled solely for destroying items I'd moved the price average on. Just saying it was pretty brave Lol


Had to have a seed of some kind, might as well get under assets that are currently badly undervalued.

Hehe, too true.

Well I hope CCP don't go off on one and have a knee-jerf reaction to it all anyway, that jewdown thread has to be one of the best I've read in a while.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Kyle Ward
Doomheim
#15 - 2012-06-22 00:06:21 UTC
What's a goonswarm?

Is it some kinda plant?

The Sandbox, you're playing it wrong!
Haquer
Vorkuta Inc
#16 - 2012-06-22 02:37:49 UTC
Kyle Ward wrote:
What's a goonswarm?

Is it some kinda plant?


Yes.

Yes it is.
Dramaticus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#17 - 2012-06-22 02:41:40 UTC
we are plant

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them
Marsan
#18 - 2012-06-22 04:01:26 UTC
Obviously the goons are to blame for this outrage. (Had to be said.)

Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a grumpy small portion of the community.
DeliaPrescot
Balintol
#19 - 2012-06-22 07:43:09 UTC
@corestwo

First congrats nice haul, second can i be smug now about my predictions on minerals here:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1266773#post1266773

I can imagine you were quite happy to unload your inflated mineral stock and still make profit via FW shop.

The really interesting question is now how CCP will rule on your manipulation. We have different examples how CCP ruled last time, just check the AHARM debacle when they exploited the infinite range/tracking guns in C6 and CCP seized a lot of ISK after all. On the other hand CCP didn't do squad to players who exploited the PI "bug".

Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#20 - 2012-06-22 08:24:24 UTC
DeliaPrescot wrote:
@corestwo

First congrats nice haul, second can i be smug now about my predictions on minerals here:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1266773#post1266773

I can imagine you were quite happy to unload your inflated mineral stock and still make profit via FW shop.

The really interesting question is now how CCP will rule on your manipulation. We have different examples how CCP ruled last time, just check the AHARM debacle when they exploited the infinite range/tracking guns in C6 and CCP seized a lot of ISK after all. On the other hand CCP didn't do squad to players who exploited the PI "bug".


Judging from your mineral predictions in the linked thread, I'm guessing you haven't seen the stats CCP released showing that mining actually decreased for a time? And that volume mined is still around the same now as it was pre-nerf?

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
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