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Are we safe in bad ways? (REVISED)
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Dave Stark
#61 - 2012-06-21 20:31:57 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
banking transfer fees? what kind of ****** banks do you bank with? i bank with three different banks and none of them charge me for moving cash from one bank to another, some thing i do frequently to hide money from people like the government.

Not certain which country you live in. I live in Florida, in the US.
Bank of Ameri-something will charge you transfer fees.
The bank whose name sounds like Wells _argo will also do this. So will Chased.
(The first two recently reached an exclusive agreement to do specific 'no cost' transfers between each other)

Dave stark wrote:
also the time it takes to move cash around, it's cheaper to just pay the tax, especially if you're ratting in null and you're buying in jita. it's a bad idea, and you should feel bad.

A lot of people will pay the transfer fees or the direct purchase use fee. (Recently clarified a point to Giznite that involved this)
It is certainly easier to do this, and many will do that.

Many will also want to save some ISK, and make a transfer to the region where they are buying, and save that money. They will be risking losing it to others along the way, but this is a theme of the game.

Why should I feel bad?

Dave stark wrote:
all this idea will do is introduce yet another tax and will be thoroughly pointless. most people will have all their isk in jita or just pay the tax because it's more isk/hr to pay the tax and go back to making isk with whatever they were doing.

You may only be seeing half the picture.

Consider a cargo moving player, who makes ISK based on freighter ops, or other generalized cargo logistics. They constantly monitor prices and activity on the market, so they can see what needs to be where.

They will jump all over any chance to move serious cargo. Think about how many people do research on major ISK purchases... those places where something sells for a lot can be undercut from moving from where the same goods sell for less.

It can and will happen, whenever opportunity arises. And this would create a LOT of opportunity...

why should you feel bad? because people who want to save isk will still pay the fee because it's still going to be more isk/hr to pay it than spend the time hauling it to wherever they need it. you're just effectively adding another tax. you're like a politician who's tag line is "you can pay more tax".

i fail to see how the other half of the picture has anything to do with your extra tax.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#62 - 2012-06-21 20:34:10 UTC
Rain Man wrote:
A part of me wants to take that as a back-handed compliment.

I think you are saying you find this ability rare or unusual.

Thanks... I think...?

Not so much, I'm currently hovering between two conclusions:

1) You are a very elaborate troll.

2) You honestly believe the ability to understand simple systems and apply pseudo-psychology to the behaviour of others is some kind of gift.

Sigmund Freud wrote:
Jackal Datapaw wrote:
Wait, I do have a question, what college, or tech school let you get your psychology degree with engineering classes, or vis-versa, cause I want to go there!

You are seriously stuck on my ability to do this? I confess surprise at this.

As to psychology, no formal training, or claim to any. You just pick up things over time from people, and patterns become noticeable. People making assumptions about each other is very common, live long enough and you will see it too often to miss, if you watch closely. The usual thing I see is people fill in the blanks about others with details about themselves.

Ever notice how people give friends gifts that they wish they would get themselves? (Barring of course having an actual awareness of what they wanted, like a xmas list or something)

I think you are getting confused with classic transference, which still (probably) wouldn't really have much to do with what I get for Christmas. Although your hypothesis would much more neatly explain why my girlfriend bought me all those friends box sets when what I really wanted was an xbox and for her to STFU and go make me a sandwich.

Besides, classic transference is not so much about transference of feelings or behaviour about your self to others, than it is about using basic already developed models of certain personality types to quickly build semi-accurate models of new acquaintances behaviour. The only aspect of psychology I know of to involve transference of your own self image onto others is to do with mirror neurons and simulation theory, both of which are more involved with simple analysis of intent rather than complex behavioural analysis.

When it comes to human behaviour it simply isn't defined by over-simplified "noticeable patterns", especially not if you are reaching the conclusions you have, it is defined by evolutionary conditioning. If you can understand the long reaching implications of evolutionary conditioning in a complex social environment, it is useful. If you are making random observations, and jumping to fully formed conclusions based on them, then that is merely dabbling in pseudo-psychological bullshit.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#63 - 2012-06-21 20:34:42 UTC
Also, if this was a serious proposal, then the idea itself is still bad.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#64 - 2012-06-21 20:59:00 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
i fail to see how the other half of the picture has anything to do with your extra tax.

Because not everyone will just pony up the extra ISK.

Some people will look into other markets, in the same region if possible, so they can avoid being charged by spending inside the region.

Only the people with an obsession with Jita will insist on going there, if they can get the same product locally.

The freighters will come.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#65 - 2012-06-21 21:01:16 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
The freighters jump freighters and covert ops haulers will come.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Dave Stark
#66 - 2012-06-21 21:05:54 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
i fail to see how the other half of the picture has anything to do with your extra tax.

Because not everyone will just pony up the extra ISK.

Some people will look into other markets, in the same region if possible, so they can avoid being charged by spending inside the region.

Only the people with an obsession with Jita will insist on going there, if they can get the same product locally.

The freighters will come.


yes they will pony up the extra isk, because unless the tax is absurdly high to the point of ******* up the game, it's almost guarenteed to be more isk/hour to just pay the fee than spend the time hauling isk. or they'll just haul it all when the system goes live and nothing will change.

this is the fundamental flaw with your idea. the tax will be outrageously high, or ignored.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#67 - 2012-06-21 21:14:01 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Rain Man wrote:
A part of me wants to take that as a back-handed compliment.

I think you are saying you find this ability rare or unusual.

Thanks... I think...?

Not so much, I'm currently hovering between two conclusions:

1) You are a very elaborate troll.

2) You honestly believe the ability to understand simple systems and apply pseudo-psychology to the behaviour of others is some kind of gift.

Pseudo psychology. That's just lovely.

Lets put it simply, and say I have a tested and proven talent with engineering, and that's the best I can do to explain it to a non engineer like yourself. I might as well try to describe what it's like to be a fish, for all the good it does.

I have more than one IM pointing out I am being trolled here, but I keep trying to see the positive.

Simi Kusoni wrote:
I think you are getting confused with classic transference, which still (probably) wouldn't really have much to do with what I get for Christmas. Although your hypothesis would much more neatly explain why my girlfriend bought me all those friends box sets when what I really wanted was an xbox and for her to STFU and go make me a sandwich.

Besides, classic transference is not so much about transference of feelings or behaviour about your self to others, than it is about using basic already developed models of certain personality types to quickly build semi-accurate models of new acquaintances behaviour. The only aspect of psychology I know of to involve transference of your own self image onto others is to do with mirror neurons and simulation theory, both of which are more involved with simple analysis of intent rather than complex behavioural analysis.

When it comes to human behaviour it simply isn't defined by over-simplified "noticeable patterns", especially not if you are reaching the conclusions you have, it is defined by evolutionary conditioning. If you can understand the long reaching implications of evolutionary conditioning in a complex social environment, it is useful. If you are making random observations, and jumping to fully formed conclusions based on them, then that is merely dabbling in pseudo-psychological bullshit.

And your thesis, while quite elaborate on assumptions about my intent and context, is off target. I am familiar with the concepts behind what you wrote, and this is not the same. You halfway pointed that out yourself.

I hope this doesn't apply to you, but foolishly some people assume life wisdom can be so easily acquired in the pages of a book. I advise you to not assume you have the answers to life, but go forth with your eyes open and see for yourself.

I guarantee it won't all be what you expected. Some will, no doubt, but a surprising amount of it will unexpected.

I must question your comprehension of my ideas as something compromising your ability to understand, much less judge them.

And another IM about not feeding trolls. Meh...

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#68 - 2012-06-21 21:16:56 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
The freighters jump freighters and covert ops haulers will come.

Oh that is quite possible, but null and lo sec all have their unique aspects.

Danger does make it fun!

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#69 - 2012-06-21 21:23:18 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
i fail to see how the other half of the picture has anything to do with your extra tax.

Because not everyone will just pony up the extra ISK.

Some people will look into other markets, in the same region if possible, so they can avoid being charged by spending inside the region.

Only the people with an obsession with Jita will insist on going there, if they can get the same product locally.

The freighters will come.


yes they will pony up the extra isk, because unless the tax is absurdly high to the point of ******* up the game, it's almost guarenteed to be more isk/hour to just pay the fee than spend the time hauling isk. or they'll just haul it all when the system goes live and nothing will change.

this is the fundamental flaw with your idea. the tax will be outrageously high, or ignored.

The tax, as you are pointing out, will be ignored by some.

And as I pointed out, it will be cost effective for corps and alliances to bypass the fees and move things themselves.

Translation: This is unlikely to affect smaller volumes of ISK. To be an obvious value, you need to be moving likely over a billion ISK. Anything less than that would probably be a gray area of value.
Anything below a hundred million would probably be ignored as not worth the time to move.
Below 10 million? Newer pilot, in many cases, good chance local shopper anyways.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Dave Stark
#70 - 2012-06-21 21:28:01 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
i fail to see how the other half of the picture has anything to do with your extra tax.

Because not everyone will just pony up the extra ISK.

Some people will look into other markets, in the same region if possible, so they can avoid being charged by spending inside the region.

Only the people with an obsession with Jita will insist on going there, if they can get the same product locally.

The freighters will come.


yes they will pony up the extra isk, because unless the tax is absurdly high to the point of ******* up the game, it's almost guarenteed to be more isk/hour to just pay the fee than spend the time hauling isk. or they'll just haul it all when the system goes live and nothing will change.

this is the fundamental flaw with your idea. the tax will be outrageously high, or ignored.

The tax, as you are pointing out, will be ignored by some.

And as I pointed out, it will be cost effective for corps and alliances to bypass the fees and move things themselves.

Translation: This is unlikely to affect smaller volumes of ISK. To be an obvious value, you need to be moving likely over a billion ISK. Anything less than that would probably be a gray area of value.
Anything below a hundred million would probably be ignored as not worth the time to move.
Below 10 million? Newer pilot, in many cases, good chance local shopper anyways.



if i want to buy some thing, i go to jita, i will just keep all my cash in jita. if i want to sell some thing i will go to jita because that's where all my money is to pay the deposit and sales taxes. to get some one to go to the effort of moving out of jita to buy my item in the lontrek system it'll have to be outrageously discounted.

this system is just bad, and horrible, and will in no way improve the game or make it more fun, not to mention the previously mentioned lack of sense it makes.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#71 - 2012-06-21 21:48:53 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
if i want to buy some thing, i go to jita, i will just keep all my cash in jita. if i want to sell some thing i will go to jita because that's where all my money is to pay the deposit and sales taxes. to get some one to go to the effort of moving out of jita to buy my item in the lontrek system it'll have to be outrageously discounted.

this system is just bad, and horrible, and will in no way improve the game or make it more fun, not to mention the previously mentioned lack of sense it makes.

I respect your opinion about the consequences differs, but as to the details we must agree to disagree.

As to your anticipated response to it, I must say it would have little to no effect on you. As you say, your money and trade interests would be in the same place already.

I'll just put you down under the voting against side then. Straight

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#72 - 2012-06-21 23:17:04 UTC
Whole thing just seems needlessly complicated.

Just do the following instead:

1) Move all non newbie PvE out of the protection of CONCORD.

2) Make Bounties a physical item that must be transported to the relevant NPC Faction to be traded in for ISK.

3) Remove Local Chat Intel.

4) Change NPC corps so that they're no longer a safe haven vs Wardecs.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#73 - 2012-06-22 00:34:37 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Pseudo psychology. That's just lovely.

Lets put it simply, and say I have a tested and proven talent with engineering, and that's the best I can do to explain it to a non engineer like yourself. I might as well try to describe what it's like to be a fish, for all the good it does.

I have more than one IM pointing out I am being trolled here, but I keep trying to see the positive.

Not so much trolling, I was just genuinely curious. And all the other posters seem to be raising the points I'd be making myself anyway, so I thought I'd indulge my curiosity briefly.

I mean you keep alluding to a talent in engineering, while disregarding the possibility that other posters here in all probability work in fields dealing with systems of equal or greater complexity. For example if I were to try and explain to you the intricacies of something as random as gunning transceiver logic you would probably not be particularly interested, and rightly so. It is a topic with limited use in a specialist field that has little correlation with cognitive function in regard to understanding different types of complex systems.

Nikk Narrel wrote:
And your thesis, while quite elaborate on assumptions about my intent and context, is off target. I am familiar with the concepts behind what you wrote, and this is not the same. You halfway pointed that out yourself.

I hope this doesn't apply to you, but foolishly some people assume life wisdom can be so easily acquired in the pages of a book. I advise you to not assume you have the answers to life, but go forth with your eyes open and see for yourself.

I guarantee it won't all be what you expected. Some will, no doubt, but a surprising amount of it will unexpected.

I must question your comprehension of my ideas as something compromising your ability to understand, much less judge them.

And another IM about not feeding trolls. Meh...

When you are applying behavioural models to another person in order to fill in currently unknown gaps in their personality it is called transference, and it is generally done based on models built up with other people.

If people applied behavioural attributes based on the way they perceive themselves, then you would have only one personality type to apply to all new people you meet. It would be an extremely inefficient system, and one that would severely effect anyone with behavioural disabilities or personality disorders. Something that there is no evidence to support.

But either way, I was mostly just satisfying my curiosity. I am at the very least now fairly certain you aren't a troll, but I still believe your proposal is bad.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#74 - 2012-06-22 00:40:38 UTC
Way to make piracy more profitable

Make jump freighters and the sort only work in 0.0 (Or some other iteration)

There are NO great valuables ever being moved at a risk in Low sec due to how easy it is to just jump **** around.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#75 - 2012-06-22 00:43:24 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Way to make piracy more profitable

Make jump freighters and the sort only work in 0.0 (Or some other iteration)

There are NO great valuables ever being moved at a risk in Low sec due to how easy it is to just jump **** around.

Now this is something that would make piracy less of a joke.

Nerf JFs thread <---- Forgot I made this a while back.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Xhaiden Ora
Doomheim
#76 - 2012-06-22 08:31:07 UTC
So...you're suggesting a civilization at a technological level whereby my conciousness can literally be instantly transfered into a clone body on the other side of the galaxy can't handle e-banking?
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#77 - 2012-06-22 14:46:29 UTC
Xhaiden Ora wrote:
So...you're suggesting a civilization at a technological level whereby my conciousness can literally be instantly transfered into a clone body on the other side of the galaxy can't handle e-banking?

No, I am saying for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

For each innovation, there exists a potential to counter. Military defenses inspire new offenses, and vice versa.

You noticed, I hope, that while your clone body may be sitting far far away, these technological wonders you describe still intend to charge you for that service.
For med clones, if you have over 900,000 skill points, you will be paying progressively more ISK to keep them intact after that transfer. In fact, they insist on this payment beforehand.

For clone jumps, they only grudgingly allow you to do it once before enforcing a delay of 24 hours prior to another. The skill to do this they delegate to your efforts, not wanting to bother themselves.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#78 - 2012-06-22 14:57:16 UTC
Xorv wrote:
Whole thing just seems needlessly complicated.

Just do the following instead:

1) Move all non newbie PvE out of the protection of CONCORD.

2) Make Bounties a physical item that must be transported to the relevant NPC Faction to be traded in for ISK.

3) Remove Local Chat Intel.

4) Change NPC corps so that they're no longer a safe haven vs Wardecs.

I actually like these ideas. They are practical.
That said, I have made similar suggestions in the past... much disagreement occurred.

This system is really not as complicated as it may first appear. In many ways, it reflects attitudes we see in real life by major financial institutions. Just not nearly as complicated as they are.

Consider this perspective:
Each region wants to make a profit. (Lets presume the infrastructure of stations and stargates alone is a financial burden, and Empires want to have ISK to build ships for their navies too)
For bounties paid in a region, the station masters want to see that ISK spent in that region. When it leaves, they know a broker somewhere else pockets it instead. Regions showing a consistent loss could lose support over time.
For trade protection, they put in an incentive that local trades remain as they are, but ISK being transferred away is discouraged by fees or risks.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#79 - 2012-06-22 15:11:04 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
If people applied behavioural attributes based on the way they perceive themselves, then you would have only one personality type to apply to all new people you meet. It would be an extremely inefficient system, and one that would severely effect anyone with behavioural disabilities or personality disorders. Something that there is no evidence to support.

You may find this useful.

I have found that many puzzles, and human interaction can certainly be one, can change tone and meaning if viewed from different perspectives.

Two people talking, for example. If you consider their history, you would expect it to be an influence. Person A has a tendency to avoid topics about birds, so if person B mentions them he will likely try to steer the topic away.
If you consider their motivations, you could also expect that to be an influence. Person B is having financial issues, so he has urges to look for opportunities that might satisfy these issues.
Perhaps one has insecurities, or is particularly responsive with empathy, or reacts strongly to physical attraction cues...

Nothing is as simple as it might seem on the surface.

Events immediately prior to the encounter can color either participant's behavior, to a degree that the encounter is changed in nature completely.

We can only measure and judge situations where we have a frame of reference. Life is not always that convenient.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...