Intergalactic Summit

I will say that the idea is not a new one, and every time it comes up the mud starts flying.

Personally, I am thankful to the Federation for the help they have given us, open to the State as friends should they decide to forsake their alliance with the Empire, and even willing to put aside the war with the Empire, should they be receptive to peace talks.

However.

I will not ally myself with the State while they remain as friends to the Empire, and I will not stop fighting the Empire for as long as the war goes on.

Kala.

Kalaratiri,

Please understand that my response to you is not one of hostility but simple perspective.

It is good that you do not forget the assistance the Federation has offered and provided to your people in the past, such an action would be dishonorable. It is also wise and noble that you are willing to seek peace with your enemies.

I have left two of your statements quoted because I wish to address these in a simple explanation. The ultimatum that the State must forsake its alliance to the Empire would be:

• Asking us to dishonor the assistance the Empire has rendered to us in the past and the debt we owe for this assistance
• Asking the State to sacrifice an already existing and relatively stable alliance in order to possibly secure a different one, except that this newer one is already in an alliance with the State's major enemy so it is unlikely to be able to offer any assistance in our time of need and would be forced to choose between one ally or the other, assisting neither or assisting both with divided numbers (which would essentially mean it is fighting itself).

Surely you can see the lack of wisdom in this course of action from the State. We would be surrounded by enemies on every front with no ally capable of assisting us without contradicting its own other allegiances. Our ability to conduct trade and business outside of the State would be almost non-existent (and the logistics involved in transporting goods and personnel would be extremely complicated due to hostilities in every direction), this would lead to an isolated stagnation of the State's economy and suffering for its citizens.

I will not comment on the assumption that the State is "friends" with the Empire as our definitions of the word may vary and it is dishonorable and treacherous to speak dismissively or callously of an ally; be it merely based on politics, circumstance or merit.

It is not beyond reason that the Caldari and the Minmatar could agree to non-aggression toward one another (which may involve other considerations, particularly in regard to how it is believed that the the State supports slavers - non-aggression between the Republic and the State would involve delegations and regulations on specific business practices that would eliminate this particular hitch). However, this would involve communication with our respective allies as it would change the scope of the situation not just for the Caldari and Minmatar, but also for the Federation and the Empire.

Mr Khross,

I would suggest you read again what i said and possibly work on your comprehension skills while doing that. I will answer to the only remark that you barely(only just) manage to slavage about the Empire and the State being straight forward.

True the Empire was never afraid to speak of Reclamation and about the use of slaves and so on and so forth. I give them credit in that, but you see the internal politics and the way of even doing business in the Empire has always been marked by this secresy and hidden motives. You can see it in the history of politics among the Heirs and even with the Holders. On the other hand the State, has been something similar with the State. Yes officially any corporation will reveal reasoning for acting on the matter x but that does not differ from any other faction in the Galaxy. However, we all know the cunningness and the backstabbing that happens within the State society. The politics of the State and how your traders do business has always centered around the well being of the State and nothing more. Even more, within the State Corporations will look to first benefit themselves even if that means harming physically other Caldari Corrporations. Corporate warfare among you is something that has been always a common sight. In fact you had/have embraced it. Many are the times Caldari has talked about how this system of total competition among you has urged you to become better and that only when the integrity of the State is at stake then you can put your differences aside(even barely). Dont get me wrong i dont say that it happens constantly but trust me it happens much more in comparison to the Federation and the Republic. Why? because we regulate and keep at check much more our corporations Mr Khross than you do. In addition lets not get too far away. The whole way and reasoning as to why the State allied with the Empire proves entirely my point. For your sake you better be thanking the God of the Amarrians making them a bit more open handed towards you and they tried to make the situation between you and them much bette especially when your Corporations were underfunded greatly, assuming you have done your homework and know about these things.

i urge you to understand again what i said about the competition part previously in depth, and also to read the whole post of mine much better, because your responses are (as always i would say not only with me, you are kinda famous for that around the IGS) given little explanation, making them found 'wanting'. In case you do not wish to do so publicly i am always around and available to discuss matters such as this in private.

Fly safe Mr Khross

P.S

I would advise you Mr Khross to keep the level and quality of discussion on a high level. Personal remarks and characterizations regarding someone else's beliefs are something i advise you not to do too much as it wont get you far away. I am all too familiar with this kind of ''muddy'' talking as we call it in the Federation, and it never helped anyone. I made my remarks about the given subject; completely correct or wrong i will be judged for them, now be a full grown up and prove facts and/or much better arguments trying to challenge my arguments and leave your petty characterizations aside. They harm only you and not me.

How kind of you to remember.



The door is always open, since you aren't a xenophobe -but do take precautions with my Puya ctenorhyncha collection along the way. Looking forward to hearing from you.

Market manipulation, exploitative monopolization, hyper-aggressive capitalism, deceptive business practices. All this and more are routine for the Megacorps. It is the Caldari way to find new markets, and exploit them. Indeed, it is a necessity for the State to continue.

You think the Gallente's cultural influences are the only way our identity can be stripped from us? I do not want the Tribes learning the Caldari market system, a ruthless system that has impoverished massive swaths of the "un-meritorious". I do not want to see our hard-earned prosperity stripped from us by rapacious economic tactics and tradewars. I do not want my culture to be forced to adopt Caldari cultural and economic models to compete.

In short, I am much more concerned with Caldari economic imperialism than Gallente cultural hegemony.

After all, taken to its logical conclusion, it would be easy to see the Megacorps' materialistic mindset fitting with say...the Angels, who seek profit from any avenue, no matter how repulsive or debase. Wouldn't you agree Pilot Jenneth?

I find it laughable when Caldari tell me "the Gallente will try to steal your identity, just like the Amarrians tried to do".

Will the Gallente whip us if we sing our songs? Execute as heretics those found passing along the old ways? Will they tinker with our DNA, and corrupt our bloodlines? I do not think Quafe will do what Vitoc could not.

I am Brutor. It is our way that which is strong endures, and that which is not should pass on. My Tribe resisted indoctrination for centuries, and our Ways continued. While the superficial might change, our essence will not. We have proven that to ourselves.

If Caldari culture is so unappealing that Gallente ways seem insidiously pervasive and attractive, then it is the way of things that Caldari culture should pass on.

And, indeed, the Caldari are right to fear Gallente culture and ways. They offer a hope to the masses of disenfranchised and homeless among them, those who the Megacorps disregard and exile as unimportant.

We Matari should not have that fear.

Funny, Tibus Heth offers the same thing to what the Gallente call the disenfranchised masses & homeless. Yet, he does not call for embracing Gallente culture, quite the opposite.

Hope however does not put food on the table and keep out the cold and wolves. Survival requires personal sacrifice, collective cooperation, and a willingness to adapt. These are concepts with which you, a Brutor, are well acquainted.

Unlike the Matari, the Caldari did not enter space prior to first contact with another race. We adapted to survive and that included embracing the economic system into which we were incorporated. However, our foundation of collective effort meant we took a different approach than the more numerous and individualist Gallente.

If we had been enslaved, our unique culture might have remained more intact. Instead, consumption of our race into the more numerous "Gallente whole" was the goal. Extinction of our people and culture through integration and assimilation.

As for economic imperialism, consider the many Federation corporations that are larger in size and breadth than any of their Caldari competitors and who the Federation has elected to lead them. Roden is not a "man of the people", quite the contrary. He is very much a businessman with economic tendrils spread throughout New Eden, more at home in a Mercantile Club business suite than a populist patriotic rally.

Perhaps the Matari tribes can resist the Gallente influence better than my ancestors, being more numerous and having a common historical legacy completely alien to the Gallente.

I have tried being understanding of your viewpoint Gottii, the least you can do is attempt the same. Instead, you continue to spew half-baked perceptions as truths. Do these things happen in the Caldari State? Yes. Are they the normal? No. Are they practiced by every Caldari and Caldari corporation? No.



"Impoverished massive swaths of the unmeritous?" Perhaps you don't realize that there are far more poor and impoverished living in your own Republic and even within the Gallente Federation than there are in the State. The State doesn't just cast aside people that can't "keep up" as you seem to believe and keep suggesting it does. Your "hard-earned prosperity" would be considered a merit to you and your people and the last thing the Caldari will do is "strip it from you," indeed your competition in the market can only improve the quality of economics, business and living standard for everyone involved because it will force others to be competitive.

The Caldari do not force anyone to accept our corporate, cultural and economic models. If you are in the State, you follow our laws and live by our system. If you are anywhere else, then honor their laws and their systems. This is the Caldari way, you have us very confused either intentionally or unintentionally.



Absolutely not. You speak of the Practical bloc of megacorporations, not the State, Patriot bloc, Liberal bloc or Caldari people as a whole. Have you completely disregarded the reputation for honest trade and business that Wiyrkomi holds? Or the fact that Ishukone holds good reputation with many in Placid and even the Republic? Do you think these reputations just spawn from nowhere? The Caldari are not the lecherous, money-hoarding, immoral bastards you are trying to make us out to be and you dishonor us by doing so.



We are Caldari and our way is that which has merit and benefits the community should be exalted and endure, that which harms the community and serves only the self should pass on. Yet you dare accuse us of being callous toward others?



Again you speak poison from ignorance. The Gallente Federation boasts one of the largest groups of poor and impoverished in all four major nations. If an individual cannot compete in the Free Market economy, then they plummet to the very bottom of the social structure.

"Many of the wealthiest people in the world are Gallente, creating a constant demand for luxury goods. At the same time, the ranks of the poor number millions, because while the liberal market-driven economy and individual freedom may allow everybody the chance to advance to the top, they make it just as easy to plummet to the very bottom of the social ladder."

The Caldari do not "discard" people as "unimportant." Those who contribute and are loyal to the community will find a place of honor and provision in the Caldari State. Those who choose not to contribute, seek selfish gain that harms the community or choose to oppose the system are removed from the system because they are a danger to everyone else. The good of the community demands that such lecherous elements be removed.

If you're going to try and profane our way of life, at least speak from an honest and educated stance. You are better than this.

This depends heavily on which megacorporate subculture we are discussing. If we're talking about NOH or SuVee, then yes. There are sharp dealers anywhere you care to look. But in the State, a reputation for honesty and fair dealing are well worth having. Neither the Liberals nor the Patriots are predominantly as you describe.



Ah-- not so much. Otherwise, the Patriot philosophy (minimizing outside contact and keeping largely to ourselves) would be deeply self-defeating. Much of our economic activity (I'd even say most) involves dealing with each other, and some of us would like to sharply limit our other dealings.

We're not locusts, pilot.



Um, no. The Amarr already took a go at that by other means. Not very effectively, mind you.



Um, pilot, it's not the market that impoverished those folk. The Caldari attitude towards the, as you put it, "un-meritorious" is not kind-- the State's primary "safety net" consists of families. It is not considered the State's responsibility to aid those who cannot contribute. That is a long-standing cultural perspective dating to Caldari Prime: if an adult Caldari did not hunt, fish, farm, cook, sew, chop wood, or otherwise contribute to keeping the community from starving or freezing, the care of that person was not the responsibility of the larger community.

That's a cultural trait. It's not the market's doing.



... Peculiar thesis. Interesting, though: in order to compete with the perceived cold-heartedness of the Caldari economic system, you feel your own people would need to become similarly cold-hearted?

Hm.

Well, despite centuries of trade, the Gallente haven't. Granted, they've got a number of things working in their advantage, there, including a head start. It'll be interesting to see what happens with the Khanid.

Come to think of it, the best response is probably our own system, which is much more diverse than you seem to think. The bare-knuckled, honorless viciousness you describe actually fits only one of the three State factions: the so-called "Practicals," so named because that's how they describe themselves: practical.

Most of the rest of us have other adjectives in mind.

Except there are no numbers for how many disenfranchised individuals there are in the State, because you don't count them as citizens. You can find them in shantytowns outside your monolithic cities, or tucked up in deadspace. They have children, and those children have had children, and they are denied ever proving themselves to be meritorious because, as I said, they're not citizens.

Similarly, the poor in the Federation have unreliable numbers due to historic problems with census-taking in a decentralized system. As Gottii has pointed out, we nonetheless count our poor as citizens, and they still retain their basic human rights.

Before you trumpet how the Caldari State has less poor than in the Federation, you should remember that in all capitalistic systems, there are always losers. Don't give me such cold and sadistic tripe that "If he's poor, he deserves it". Capitalism is competition. In a competition, there are losers. That's how it works.

As for "Gallente never leaving us be", did you forget that Executor Tibus Heth started this way by drumming up hate that spilled into the Federation? Did you forget Otro Gariushi's attempts to prevent war from taking place? Stop drinking his propaganda.

I am going to assume you have a way to prove the validity of these claims. It is true that a family can suffer for the dishonor of an individual, but it is also true that a family can be restored and benefit from the honor and merit of an individual. Your claim that the children and grandchildren of a disenfranchised family are incapable of proving their merit is entirely false, at least not under normal practice. (That is to say that such a thing could theoretically happen but it is not the normal).

If we did not permit anyone other than citizens of the State or families in good standing to prove their merit, then explain to me how anyone that moves to the State finds a place there. Explain to me how anyone gains merit and honor to start with. You can't because your claims themselves have no merit and are baseless. Everyone is expected to contribute to the community and thus everyone is given the chance to do so.



Basic human rights according to you, your culture and your government. We afford the same opportunities and rights to anyone in the State, including those that have not proven their honor or merit and it is possible to regain lost honor and merit through continued service. The disconnect is that you see different things as "basic human rights" than the Caldari do, but we don't try telling you what to think.



A hollow defense. I will illustrate a point in difference to you, however. In the Federation, the "losers" are individuals, those who cannot climb the social ladder and stay atop the cosmopolitan society. When their wealth is not as great as another's they are the loser. See, in the Federation, there is always someone richer, someone more powerful and only that person can truly "win," everyone else is simply "second place." In Caldari society the "losers" are those who refuse to contribute what talents and skills they do have to the whole and therefore receive nothing from the whole in return. Individual merit isn't weighed in comparison from one individual to another, but in how each individual contributes to the community and how the community benefits each individual. Even the CEOs of the megacorporations are bound by service to their fellow Caldari, lest they shame themselves and their position of influence is quickly eradicated and replaced by another with more merit to the whole.

You see, while your society is filled with a wolf-eat-wolf like competition, with each person out for their own personal gain and glory, the Caldari hold one another accountable for service to the whole, with even the supposed "lowliest" of professions having a place of honor and merit in the greater community. The losers in Caldari society are corporate names and leaders, who bring their shame and dishonor upon themselves and are replaced by those of more merit so that those under their employ and jurisdiction need not suffer at the expense of the dishonored leaders.



It never fails to amuse me how your repeated defense is to point the finger of blame at something else, something outside of your Federation. You rarely, if ever, actually seek to defend against a point made, you just try to redirect blame.

Of course the honorable efforts of Otro Gariushi-haan will never be forgotten by those of us in the State. In fact, it was his death (in spite of his attempts to dissuade war) that fueled the propagand that Heth used to help start the war. The continued aggression from the Federation, the Malkalen Incident, military operations almost immediately after Malkalen, and the policies and behaviors of your own President Roden also contributed to the war, so do not try and point the finger of blame solely at others, general.

By the way, since you were so kind as to bring up Otro Gariushi in a thread about how the Caldari and the Matari may be able to cooperate and assist one another, I'd like to call attention to his final wish, the one that was honored by the State: to give the Insorum antidote to Shakor at no cost.

That sounds awfully contradictory to the way the Caldari have been protrayed as money-hoarding, self-seeking, cold-hearted bastards.