EVE General Discussion

Why are you repeating your useless trolls in both threads, just curious ?

Tal

This is true but if you cut back the bounties in hi-sec in half (say biggest bounty battleship rat would be 300-500k) this would prompt those who want more isk for pvp or pve to venture into low-sec and then into null for the best income from rats (risk vs reward thing). I also like the concord payment idea probably could make it the more expensive the ship/tech level the more isk is taken for protection.

That is a lesson that all null sec alliance leaders should learn!

"Treat them mean, keep them keen" only works when you've got them hooked. Until then, you will catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

Rats are already worth allot more in loot and bounty in low and null. Its not about nerfing hi but improving null.

Tal

I don't think suicide killers survive a concord attack as it is. vOv

You can't have a war without logistics. Hampering logistics would do very little to make the epic aspect of the game better, because it would make the act of constantly clashing two huge fleets (of f.ex 500+ each) into eachother and see who comes off the worst a rarer event than it is today.


The main usage of JBs isn't to project a 1000 strong fleet from the lower tip of fountain all the way up to the upper tip of tenal and back again, it's just to move around within your own empire, either because you need to move stuff or to do home defense. I see no problems with home defense having an advantage, and even 200+ fleets are a veritable pita to run through JBs, for reasons which should be obvious.


Supercapitals being built at the pace they are today is an issue, but I'm not going to say "logistics is too easy in general" as long as deklein isn't even able to sustain its own ammo consumption pr day, whereas a single hisec system can. Fix industry in nullsec, watch it actually blossom and become a healthy thing, then you can think about nerfing logistics.

And still, don't think for a second alliance-level logistics is "easy". It's a lot of work.


I would literally not cry a single tear if jumpclones were completely removed, today.


Actually, it's more an indication that we've made friends which span from the lower end of fountain to the upper end of tenal, and the sov system is allowing us to do this because taking any systems from us is a *****.

This. I used to thinkt he same as Mara does, but the simple fact is that 0.0 industry is so totally gimped that cutting off the logistics pipeline would wipe out sov 0.0 within a month.

I'd like to see CCP reduce hi-sec research/Industry facilities to 0.0 levels for a single day - and say loud and clear, in a modal pop-up "This is what industry is like in sov space, do you think we should improve it?" and have Yes, Improve 0.0 to be as good as Hi-sec and No, Keep Hi-sec As bad as 0.0 choice buttons.

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From an outsider's perspective* there seem to have been two main suggestions for revitalising null so far: establishing 'farms and fields' and getting more ratters/PvEers in to build an ecosystem on.

The 'ecosystem' idea won't work for Sov null, though. (I have my doubts as to how well it works in EVE at all, in fact. IRL ecosystems work because most of the antelope don't get eaten.) I'm making two assumptions here: that alliances don't prey on their own members, and that a Sov-holding alliance wants to (and expects to be able to) prevent large numbers of reds/neutrals from exploiting the resources in their space. Given those two assumptions, you'll never have significant numbers of targets in your own space. (Raiding someone else's space to kill their ratters would be part of the farms-and-fields model).

That leaves 'farms-and-fields'. This could be done by changing the way null PvE works but I personally think that's the wrong way to go about this: that's not what people go to Sov null for. Rather, you need to get the industry side of things revamped. The issue isn't that your PvP pilots are earning their ISK from PvE in high-sec when they shouyld be doing it in null, it's that in the grand player-created empires of EVE your soldiers have to buy their own gear!** That's a ridiculous scenario - like the Roman Empire forcing their legionaires to take a second job to pay for the priviledge of fighting for them. Any good-sized Sov-holding alliance should be able to establish a PvP wing who have all their equipment provided by the alliance's industrial wing in return for protection.

This is where I'd be interested to see what actual null residents have to say, but I see three main things that need to be done. First is making sure industry in null actually works - the current infrastructure sounds horribly inadequate, and moon-mining (technetium in particular) needs some work as well.

Second is making it raidable. Docking-up and waiting until an enemy leaves should be an expensive response, and one that will make your indy pilots start asking the PvP pilots some rather pointed questions. This means that the important stuff can't all be behind POS shields like with the current moon-mining set-up - there needs to be something that a small- to mid-sized gang can kill or seriously disrupt if there are no defenders around to stop them. Equally, it has to be impractical to just pack everything up and hide in a station/POS every time a raider comes along, so it can't be entirely ship-based like the urrent mining system. Some form of anchorable structure that takes a fifteen minutes or half an hour to put up and take down seems like it might work out here.

The flip side of point two is that it also has to be defendable. When that raiding gang turns up, it has to be more practical for them to fight off the defenders before trying to kill the indy targets, not just take it down with alpha damage under the guards' noses.The upcoming changes to barges & exhumers might help solve this issue in terms of actual mining, and hopefully it will be built-in from the start for any new mechanics. A HP buffer is one way to do this, or a panic-button for the industrial pilots that gives them a brief period of protection. (All non-combat ships within 100km become invulnerable for a short time, at the cost of deactivating all modules and locking them in place for the same period.)

Finally, (and possibly most controversially) I agree with Mara that logistics need to be made less convenient***. Jita should not be the most efficient way for even people in deep null-sec to get supplies, since the whole point of this is to create a raidable industrial base in 0.0. (This is not strictly necessary, though; creating a resource-extraction paradigm in null-sec and leaving the R&D and production in high-sec would also work. The way resource-harvesting in null works would still need to be reworked significantly, though.)

Overall, everyone wins. Both small- and large-scale conflict in 0.0 increases once fighting over resources becomes more practical. Industrial pilots finally have a reason to go to null-sec, and can expect to be respected once they do since the null alliances now have a reason to want them. And PvP pilots get both more fights and a greater incentive to move to null themselves.

*Yes, I have no experience in null. I'm quite happy to admit that. On the other hand, this whole thread is about getting more people into null, and as one of the people was considering the move but took a second look and said "**** that, it's not worth it", my opinion must be worth something to the debate.

**I'm aware that most alliances have ship-replacement programs and suchlike, but I'm going by the number of null-sec players here claiming to use high-sec alts to fund PvP. If those programs were as comprehensive as they should be, that wouldn't be necessary.

***Please note, this is contingent on null-sec manufacturing being made viable first. Obviously, cutting 0.0 off from JIta without giving them the ability to build stuff for themselves would kill it in very short order. The fact that null-sec manufacturing is currently broken doesn't mean that the ease of logistics in EVE right now isn't also a problem, though.

I don't always agree with Goons, but when I do, I drink dos Quafe'ies