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This is a forum, I wish to use it as such. Debate away....

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Captain Fandango
The Wayward Sons
#1 - 2012-06-21 11:16:05 UTC
In an effort to maintain proper posting etiquette and in the interests of keeping this both civil and logical I have decided to limit this op to only one topic; the logical fallacy.

As a disclaimer; I do not ate hi-sec players, or low-sec players, or even nul-sec players. I don't see carebears as the enemy or goons as the school yard bullies. I feel a faint and persistent affection towards everyone that plays eve, regardless of how they spend time together

However, I can't help but notice that a lot of what is being debated right here on the forums is, sadly, vitriol and rhetoric, and I wondered if we could potentially discuss that;

There are a lot of people who currently think that, in altering mining barges, ccp have caved to carebear pressure and Violated the rules of the sandbox by using their dev-magic to level the playing field artificially. these people are quite vocal, and, to an extent, their point is a valid one; there is no sandbox if ccp are going to interfere with dynamic, player driven content and hand one side an advantage.

However these pro-nul, anti hi-sec carebear players also want ccp to nerf hi-sec, equally artificially, in order to 're-vitalise' nul-sec.... so ccp interfering ruins their dynamic player driven content, but they are quite happy for ccpp to interfere on their behalf to artificially stifle the player-driven hi-sec activities of carebare corporations? admittedly these arn't the same two vocal minorities, but there are a lot of people that seem to share these views floating around; nerf hi-sec because nul-sec is the endgame, but don't buff mining barges because that's interfering with the sandbox? logically that isn't a sound proposition

I have no problems with goons/test etc driving content and altering dynamics. prey on the weak, fight the carebears but do not argue, I implore you, that you abhor ccp's interference and want a totally player driven sandbox, then cry out for artificial nerfs to hi-sec. If you as a group of nul-sec players want hi-sec rewards reduced, or nul-sec to see a boost in activity, engineer it yourself, or admit that ccp still have a part to play in directing the game.

And 'carebears,' again, in the interests of logic and common sense, stop crying out to ccp to rescue you and then rage-posting about people demanding ccp decrease hi-sec income in order to push people into nul

Either ccp have to get involved and attempt to, frantically, appease opposing factions wants, needs and demands, or they have to maintain distance and let players shape content, we can't all cry out to them for help and then rage when they throw the opposing faction a bone.
Peter Raptor
Galactic Hawks
#2 - 2012-06-21 11:21:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Peter Raptor
Captain Fandango wrote:
, I implore you,.



Shocked LOL

Your forum etiquette is indeed very much refined.

Sorry, what was the topic again, got side tracked by the etiquette.Bear


Edit ; Oh yeah, Eve is a sandbox, got it.

Evelopedia; 

The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion  †  
Amarr Haircare Products
Doomheim
#3 - 2012-06-21 11:32:36 UTC
Captain Fandango wrote:
In an effort to maintain proper posting etiquette and in the interests of keeping this both civil and logical I have decided to limit this op to only one topic; the logical fallacy.


Most of EVE is logical fallacy.

Like replying to everything with "HTFU" even though it leads nowhere and can be used on any side of any argument(i.e. CCP makes it so you can't attack other players in hi-sec. Don't like it? HTFU!)
Or repeatedly claiming that EVE is for sociopaths when you'e a member of a 100+ members strong corp which is in turn a member of a 1000+ players strong alliance.
Or claiming that EVE is a sandbox, then deeming your particular playing style superior and the "right" way to play.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#4 - 2012-06-21 11:33:28 UTC
The greatest fallacy in your post (and posts of a similar nature) is that bestowing upon players the capacity for self-determination in an already-skewed system is somehow fair.

No, it's not fair. Creating a button that when pushed, allows a certain subsection of players to achieve invulnerability, while at the same time telling other subsections "oh well, it's a player-driven sandbox, so finding a way to deal with that invulnerability button falls solely upon your shoulders" is unfair. In fact, it's downright hypocritical.

As someone who has been around for over eight years, I can most assuredly tell you that this is the direction CCP is moving in. All gameplay changes made have so far invariably accommodated the safety crowd. CCP wants that soccer mom cash, and there's nothing we can do about it. Even the new forum rules are evidence of this, not to mention the recent dec shields, practical removal of high-sec wars, the upcoming removal of can theft and barge-ganking, and the plethora of carebear boosts that have been implemented over the years.

I guess the null-sec/low-sec/high-sec warrior/ganker crowd is once again going to have to "HTFU" and adapt to the changes being made to the game. Changes made so that the carebears don't have to do the very same thing.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Amarr Haircare Products
Doomheim
#5 - 2012-06-21 11:42:15 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
The greatest fallacy in your post (and posts of a similar nature) is that bestowing upon players the capacity for self-determination in an already-skewed system is somehow fair.


EVE isn't fair. HTFU.

Roll
Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#6 - 2012-06-21 11:47:28 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
I guess the null-sec/low-sec/high-sec warrior/ganker crowd is once again going to have to "HTFU" and adapt to the changes being made to the game. Changes made so that the carebears don't have to do the very same thing.


A lot of the null-sec/high-sec warrior/ganker crowd you mention are highsec Alt's. You can deny that all you want and demand proof. The fact is that Highsec Alt's are carebears by current definitions.

CCP is doing a good job at juggling balance between the pvp and non-pvp and it is not an easy or rewarding task. It is never completed, never "done". Too much pvp is just as bad as no pvp, the same as too much safety is as bad as no safety for this game. Forever trying to balance the good and the evil. Neither of which can exist without the other. If you don't see this, then you fool yourself.


COO - Bene Gesserit Chapterhouse  CEO - Sanctuary Pact Alliance
Hendrik Tiberius
Red Phoenix Rising
#7 - 2012-06-21 11:54:53 UTC
Captain Fandango wrote:
...
As a disclaimer; I do not ate hi-sec players, or low-sec players, or even nul-sec players. I don't see carebears as the enemy or goons as the school yard bullies. I feel a faint and persistent affection towards everyone that plays eve, regardless of how they spend time together
...


So what do you eat?
Pak Narhoo
Splinter Foundation
#8 - 2012-06-21 11:57:02 UTC
Hendrik Tiberius wrote:
Captain Fandango wrote:
...
As a disclaimer; I do not ate hi-sec players, or low-sec players, or even nul-sec players. I don't see carebears as the enemy or goons as the school yard bullies. I feel a faint and persistent affection towards everyone that plays eve, regardless of how they spend time together
...


So what do you eat?


CCP dev's? Shocked
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#9 - 2012-06-21 12:01:43 UTC
Pak Narhoo wrote:
Hendrik Tiberius wrote:
Captain Fandango wrote:
...
As a disclaimer; I do not ate hi-sec players, or low-sec players, or even nul-sec players. I don't see carebears as the enemy or goons as the school yard bullies. I feel a faint and persistent affection towards everyone that plays eve, regardless of how they spend time together
...


So what do you eat?


CCP dev's? Shocked


Sad We're not what's for dinner!

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
Aemonchichi
Limited Access
#10 - 2012-06-21 12:05:32 UTC
Captain Fandango wrote:
And 'carebears,' again, in the interests of logic and common sense, stop crying out to ccp to rescue you and then rage-posting about people demanding ccp decrease hi-sec income in order to push people into nul


did the thought come to you that "forcing people" to null is very eve unlike ? maybe the player corp/alliances just dont offer enough incentives to draw people to null ?

if you just wanna CCP to force ppl to null so u have more pewpew then HTFU
Mara Tessidar
Perkone
Caldari State
#11 - 2012-06-21 12:14:47 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Sad We're not what's for dinner!


CCP Vitamin Supplement
ElQuirko
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2012-06-21 12:26:46 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Sad We're not what's for dinner!


You are now.

Dodixie > Hek
Minimal Charisma
Padded Sell
#13 - 2012-06-21 12:31:12 UTC
Heh
Phallacy
Blastcaps Madullier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#14 - 2012-06-21 12:31:55 UTC
Thorn Galen wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
I guess the null-sec/low-sec/high-sec warrior/ganker crowd is once again going to have to "HTFU" and adapt to the changes being made to the game. Changes made so that the carebears don't have to do the very same thing.


A lot of the null-sec/high-sec warrior/ganker crowd you mention are highsec Alt's. You can deny that all you want and demand proof. The fact is that Highsec Alt's are carebears by current definitions.

CCP is doing a good job at juggling balance between the pvp and non-pvp and it is not an easy or rewarding task. It is never completed, never "done". Too much pvp is just as bad as no pvp, the same as too much safety is as bad as no safety for this game. Forever trying to balance the good and the evil. Neither of which can exist without the other. If you don't see this, then you fool yourself.



well given the fact all sides are usualy complaining about what ccp are doing is usualy an indication their keeping things reasonably balanced overall it's kinda like the BBC in britain, it's publicly funded and neutral towards all the political parties, yet all the poliitical parties complain about the BBC being biased against them... lol

as for the changes CCP have made about forum posts seems their trying to move the forums away from the hate filled trollfest they've become, and trying to encourage debates, discussions and ideas as apposed to flaming, hate fill bile that usualy fills the forums lol.
and the reason it frequently ends up that way is people being passionate about topics of discussion and their favorite game :)
Xhaiden Ora
Doomheim
#15 - 2012-06-21 12:36:51 UTC
Wise words aside, I'm more concerned for your avatar. He looks like he just walked out of his first prostate exam.

Do you need a hug, dude?
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#16 - 2012-06-21 12:51:05 UTC
Blastcaps Madullier wrote:
as for the changes CCP have made about forum posts seems their trying to move the forums away from the hate filled trollfest they've become, and trying to encourage debates, discussions and ideas as apposed to flaming, hate fill bile that usualy fills the forums lol.
and the reason it frequently ends up that way is people being passionate about topics of discussion and their favorite game :)

There is no such thing as objective censorship. All censorship exists for the sole benefit of the party utilizing it. In this case, it is about passing off the image of a respected company that provides wholesome entertainment. This paradigm shift, might I add, has been wholly unnecessary for the past decade.

I, for one, value freedom of speech, and would rather be called a ****** for every second post I make than nod along in a sterilized, whitewashed environment. Unfortunately (at least I feel this is unfortunate; others are welcome to their own opinions), not everyone in the civilized first world shares this perspective. I guess it's something of a catch 22; should people be free to speak out against freely speaking out? Either way, I feel like our community has recently lost something special.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#17 - 2012-06-21 12:51:49 UTC
Blastcaps Madullier wrote:
Thorn Galen wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
I guess the null-sec/low-sec/high-sec warrior/ganker crowd is once again going to have to "HTFU" and adapt to the changes being made to the game. Changes made so that the carebears don't have to do the very same thing.


A lot of the null-sec/high-sec warrior/ganker crowd you mention are highsec Alt's. You can deny that all you want and demand proof. The fact is that Highsec Alt's are carebears by current definitions.

CCP is doing a good job at juggling balance between the pvp and non-pvp and it is not an easy or rewarding task. It is never completed, never "done". Too much pvp is just as bad as no pvp, the same as too much safety is as bad as no safety for this game. Forever trying to balance the good and the evil. Neither of which can exist without the other. If you don't see this, then you fool yourself.



well given the fact all sides are usualy complaining about what ccp are doing is usualy an indication their keeping things reasonably balanced overall it's kinda like the BBC in britain, it's publicly funded and neutral towards all the political parties, yet all the poliitical parties complain about the BBC being biased against them... lol

as for the changes CCP have made about forum posts seems their trying to move the forums away from the hate filled trollfest they've become, and trying to encourage debates, discussions and ideas as apposed to flaming, hate fill bile that usualy fills the forums lol.
and the reason it frequently ends up that way is people being passionate about topics of discussion and their favorite game :)


Hehe, truth.

COO - Bene Gesserit Chapterhouse  CEO - Sanctuary Pact Alliance
Blastcaps Madullier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#18 - 2012-06-21 13:11:21 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Blastcaps Madullier wrote:
as for the changes CCP have made about forum posts seems their trying to move the forums away from the hate filled trollfest they've become, and trying to encourage debates, discussions and ideas as apposed to flaming, hate fill bile that usually fills the forums lol.
and the reason it frequently ends up that way is people being passionate about topics of discussion and their favorite game :)


There is no such thing as objective censorship. All censorship exists for the sole benefit of the party utilizing it. In this case, it is about passing off the image of a respected company that provides wholesome entertainment. This paradigm shift, might I add, has been wholly unnecessary for the past decade.

I, for one, value freedom of speech, and would rather be called a ****** for every second post I make than nod along in a sterilized, whitewashed environment. Unfortunately (at least I feel this is unfortunate; others are welcome to their own opinions), not everyone in the civilized first world shares this perspective. I guess it's something of a catch 22; should people be free to speak out against freely speaking out? Either way, I feel like our community has recently lost something special.


even when instead of discussion, debate and suggestions threads are frequently hijacked as they descend flaming hate filled bile instead of reasonable discussions?
as for "censorship" as you put it, when you signed up for eve online you agreed to abide by certain terms and conditions including conduct on the eve forums, and for a long time CCP has generally (I say generally) light touch with regards to the forums, but i bet if you compare the earliest eve forum posts against a lot of today's posts ones you'll soon discover just how much eve forums have descended frequently into hate spewing bile filled flame fests, and it looks like CCP is finally saying "ok enough's enough" and trying to bring the forums back towards reasonable debate, discussions and suggestions (other than where exactly to stick that erebus with regards to another player :)
Also bear in mind CCP could be held liable for things posted on the forums if something extreme happened and some "nice" lawyer in the states decides because "failed in their duty of care" with regards to something posted by a player and failed to moderate the post either by editing it, locking it or simply deleting it.
an example of extreme would be the incident a fair while back where someone went to another eve players house (who was a titan pilot for a certain alliance) and cut the guys power cables to his house while the guy was piloting a titan in a fight in eve at the time, which shows just how passionate people can get about eve though it still doesn't make what he did right.
AFK Hauler
State War Academy
#19 - 2012-06-21 13:12:28 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Pak Narhoo wrote:
Hendrik Tiberius wrote:
Captain Fandango wrote:
...
As a disclaimer; I do not ate hi-sec players, or low-sec players, or even nul-sec players. I don't see carebears as the enemy or goons as the school yard bullies. I feel a faint and persistent affection towards everyone that plays eve, regardless of how they spend time together
...


So what do you eat?


CCP dev's? Shocked


Sad We're not what's for dinner!




Don't forget breakfast and lunch with a snack or two thrown in...
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#20 - 2012-06-21 13:25:27 UTC
Captain Fandango wrote:
In an effort to maintain proper posting etiquette and in the interests of keeping this both civil and logical I have decided to limit this op to only one topic; the logical fallacy.

As a disclaimer; I do not ate hi-sec players, or low-sec players, or even nul-sec players. I don't see carebears as the enemy or goons as the school yard bullies. I feel a faint and persistent affection towards everyone that plays eve, regardless of how they spend time together

However, I can't help but notice that a lot of what is being debated right here on the forums is, sadly, vitriol and rhetoric, and I wondered if we could potentially discuss that;


I liked your post until here.

After this, you don't want to take part of one side but you actually do. The sandbox is broken and need adjustments such as balance things or "shaking stuff" to ad new dynamics and keep the sandbox a living place where changes happen despite the odds.

I do agree some changes are badly implemented and take absolutely no account on players feedback or it's just a poor derived implementation leading to more bugs or fail implementation leading to total destruction of some player base fun witch is completely different of the purpose of the sandbox that is ships destruction.

Is the sandbox symbioses fragile than ever? -I think so but I don't have any magical solution nor anyone around, as things stand it's anew game with new proper mechanics that it's needed, but this will never happen and we will keep patching this or that depending on how much unsub after changes, this IS the sad part of all the stuff you talk about.

brb
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