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Go ahead CCP, listen to the people in the "make null virbant again" thread

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Cierejai
Biofuel Productions
#81 - 2012-06-21 11:06:09 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Cierejai wrote:
So make level 6 agents and put them in null sec at player owned stations, they would be 10/10 hard but you could spam them non stop.

There problem solved.

Ok, so given the ensuing inflation this would cause, and the lack of a relative increase to high sec income, what is the difference between this and a high sec nerf?

Not to mention the crash of LP store item prices.


L5 gives more money then a L4, L6 would give more money then a L5, gives the null sec bears more money then highsec bears, wouldn't be a nerf to high because it wouldn't affect any payouts from highsec, and the agents would be unaffiliated with any corp so no LP point gain.

Theoretically the nullbear alts would leave highsec to run null, as well as some highsecbears leaving high to go to null, factor in increased ship destruction from bears running missions in null, and it would all balance out.

I majored in voodoo economics so it's cool.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2012-06-21 11:07:51 UTC
Cierejai wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Cierejai wrote:
So make level 6 agents and put them in null sec at player owned stations, they would be 10/10 hard but you could spam them non stop.

There problem solved.

Ok, so given the ensuing inflation this would cause, and the lack of a relative increase to high sec income, what is the difference between this and a high sec nerf?

Not to mention the crash of LP store item prices.


L5 gives more money then a L4, L6 would give more money then a L5, gives the null sec bears more money then highsec bears, wouldn't be a nerf to high because it wouldn't affect any payouts from highsec, and the agents would be unaffiliated with any corp so no LP point gain.

Theoretically the nullbear alts would leave highsec to run null, as well as some highsecbears leaving high to go to null, factor in increased ship destruction from bears running missions in null, and it would all balance out.

I majored in voodoo economics so it's cool.

L5s are apparently barely run, so their impact on the economy is negiligible, whereas L4s aren't "barely run".

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#83 - 2012-06-21 11:08:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Cutter Isaacson
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Yeah CCP, do precisely what many (not all) are suggesting: Nerf high sec more.

Please, do it.
Let the lead dev run wild with the nerf hammer in high sec.

And once the carnage in high sec is over, then you will have the empirical evidence of whether players will simply will quit rather than move out of high sec.

I have played in high, low, wh's, null, and back to high sec. I have experienced pretty much all that the game has to offer.
I have seen the joys and oh so many lows of null. Null sec is NOT the ONLY end-game. There is a reason that the "make null sec vibrant again" thread is 37 pages long. Null sec is an entity that is in trouble. That's because much of the null sec experience is awful, but the game mechanics only partially it make it that way. If it is not the mechanics, I wonder what it is......

As an alternate suggestion , why don't you do yourselves a favour and create a one-time poll that must be answered in order for an account to log in.

One question on the poll: "If potential high income was half of what it is today, would you move out of high sec or quit the game?"

If you already don't live in high sec, you will of course answer no.
If you use high sec to fund your non-high sec activities, then you have to think carefully about an answer.

But I already know the how this suggestion will be viewed.

The null sec propagandists will descend with the attacks, and CCP devs will think "why should be gather actual statistics from our playerbase, when we have the completely unbiased forums, the totally neutral CSM, and of course our own in-game experience to guide us on the direction of the game."

So nerf away CCP, nerf high sec into oblivion. I look forward to the aftermath.



May I ask, where exactly do you spend the majority of your in game time? And with whom?

One of the best ways to make a section of a game vibrant again is not to nerf the other areas in to oblivion, that just creates animosity, something that CCP does not need. Instead, it would be wiser to provide a positive incentive for people to abandon high sec and make the move down.

CCP know this already, they have seen first hand what happens when you make silly choices that affect large numbers of players, and they will avoid that kind of situation like the plague. The problem lies with where and what to buff. Get it right and you successfully revitalise a dull part of the game, get it wrong and kiss goodbye to a large portion of your playerbase.

Why do you think CCP aren't just going to rush in and, as you so melodramatically put it "Let the lead dev run wild with the nerf hammer in high sec."?

As to your idea of a questionnaire, it would just get meta gamed, so it would provide no useful information at all. Hell, most people would click any answer, just to get it out of the way so they can log in and play. If you don't understand even the basics of gamer mentality, then perhaps you should not be making threads like this.

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
Josef Djugashvilis
#84 - 2012-06-21 11:08:40 UTC

[/quote]

How many times has hi-sec been nerfed in the last 5 years?

How many times has it been buffed?
[/quote]

I honestly do not know. Pray, do tell.

This is not a signature.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#85 - 2012-06-21 11:11:44 UTC
Hisec got any nerfs prior to the incursion nerf?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#86 - 2012-06-21 11:13:40 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Hisec got any nerfs prior to the incursion nerf?



What some see as a nerf, others see as an example of game balancing.

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
Cierejai
Biofuel Productions
#87 - 2012-06-21 11:17:03 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Cierejai wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Cierejai wrote:
So make level 6 agents and put them in null sec at player owned stations, they would be 10/10 hard but you could spam them non stop.

There problem solved.

Ok, so given the ensuing inflation this would cause, and the lack of a relative increase to high sec income, what is the difference between this and a high sec nerf?

Not to mention the crash of LP store item prices.


L5 gives more money then a L4, L6 would give more money then a L5, gives the null sec bears more money then highsec bears, wouldn't be a nerf to high because it wouldn't affect any payouts from highsec, and the agents would be unaffiliated with any corp so no LP point gain.

Theoretically the nullbear alts would leave highsec to run null, as well as some highsecbears leaving high to go to null, factor in increased ship destruction from bears running missions in null, and it would all balance out.

I majored in voodoo economics so it's cool.

L5s are apparently barely run, so their impact on the economy is negiligible, whereas L4s aren't "barely run".


Unless your in a corp that "owns" the lowsec area where the L5 mission is it's almost impossible to run it "safely".

However intel networks already exist in null and you could just put the agent in a station in the back of your space which would make it "safer" to run since you own the space.

Alternatively you could buff Black ops ships, so a person in one won't appear in local, so they could cyno in ships to pop mission runners.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#88 - 2012-06-21 11:20:52 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Another who make it personal and of course - wrong.
I also have never lost a single L3+ PvE ship in low or nullsec. I had plenty of opportunities to lose them, both when I was in Stain for pirate L4, in Minmatar low sec around Evati and Taff (more L4) and in other places.
I also never lost a freighter despite I and other about 6 logistic officers had to haul stuff for the corp for 7 or so low sec jumps every week.

So what? Your non sequitur still remains a non sequitur.
Unlike what you seem to be limited at, I can extrapolate more than personal social behavior. I know hundreds of people in all secs, I know how they think and what they do and why.

I make a point for the general playerbase not because *I* lost some ship.

You claim massive losses are incurred for anyone PvEing in low/null, yet have done it yourself without incurring massive losses? That simply doesn't seem to make sense to me.

And my comment wasn't really a personal jab at you, more at the way you insinuated non-empire PvE is some kind of suicidal high-cost nightmare equivalent to earning 2m isk/hour in high sec.

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Once again a brilliant "one size fits all" conclusion.
Nope. EvE is larger than your horizon. Looking thru a tight butt hole does not show the whole beauty of EvE.

There's loads of people who purely do missions to get the best mission ships they can. Those ridicolous killmails showing 30B worth of pimpboat killed demostrate they made improving their ship their own, sandbox, end game.

There's loads who make isk to buy BPOs to make stuff. Because they like to make stuff. They like to learn the 1000 tricks to do it better, faster, more efficient.

There's loads who make ISK and buy a Tengu and go low sec to get shiny sites and then go sell their loot. The finding is a reward on itself (for others it's a mere way to get money, EvE caters to both).

There's loads of traders who like me make money as byproduct of enjoying the markets. They spend months learning all the tricks of the trades, the trends, the fundamentals that make items go up or down...

All of those are different and beyond the "Make ISK for your 0.0 main".

Put it in your head: there's less people who have or will ever care to have a 0.0 main than you believe. EvE is bigger and greater and grander than your tunnel vision.

Station trading is irrelevant, since it would be largely unaffected, although inter-region trading would be damaged by fixing war dec evasion unless players learnt to scout.

Making ISK to buy ships to move to low sec is, again, irrelevant because that isn't really about high sec income.

And then we reach the crux of it, the mission runners who grind endlessly to buy better ships to grind endlessly with. Whilst yes, I understand they exist, personally I don't really see the negative impact of extending a grind which is already by it's very nature unending.

The fact of the matter is until you create a meaningful gap between the high, low and null income brackets or reduce the safety of operating in high, people will not operate en masse in low or null.

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
1) One man disposable corps. Asinine fix circumvented. Next.

2) No, destroying hi sec you'll just get a whole panorama of sh!t, empty space.

Your cure is like a grand statement declaring how making every USA citizen gain 82 dollars a month like in Burundi, will clearly motivate USA citizens to move to Burundi.

For point number one I did not specify a method for fixing war decs or NPC hauling. But, if I had to:

Characters dropping out of multiple war decced corps within a specific time frame are given a deserter flag, meaning that either that cannot join a new corp or the wars begin to follow them when they move corporation.

NPC characters over a certain age are flagged with a suspect flag when in space flying certain ships. So an NPC character would be unable to safely fly, say, a jump freighter or marauder through high security space.

For point number two I'm inclined to agree, although it does depend how much you nerf it by. If we were to go by your estimates and assume we'd need to nerf high sec down to 2m an hour, sure, you're right. Personally I think it would be more reasonable to introduce small nerfs, and combine it with nerfs to safety in high sec at the same time.

As for your final analogy, that's just dumb.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#89 - 2012-06-21 11:23:46 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Hisec got any nerfs prior to the incursion nerf?

Level 5s moving to low sec?

Other than that I can only think of buffs, both to safety and income.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Ceptia Cyna
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#90 - 2012-06-21 11:27:24 UTC
Go ahead CCP, listen to the people in the "make null virbant again" thread

...they tell you how to effectively loose 80% of the high sec customers and kill EvE. Bear

We wont move to low
We wont move to 0.0
We just quit.

Forever alone in 0.0 you will be. Lol
Ban Bindy
Bindy Brothers Pottery Association
True Reign
#91 - 2012-06-21 11:35:17 UTC
There is no way to force people out of high sec into null. That strategy has failed for years and will continue to fail. Null has to attract people on its own terms.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#92 - 2012-06-21 11:36:37 UTC
Ceptia Cyna wrote:
Go ahead CCP, listen to the people in the "make null virbant again" thread

...they tell you how to effectively loose 80% of the high sec customers and kill EvE. Bear

We wont move to low
We wont move to 0.0
We just quit.

Forever alone in 0.0 you will be. Lol


It is nonconstructive posts like this that make me feel shame for basing in High Sec.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#93 - 2012-06-21 11:38:01 UTC
Ban Bindy wrote:
There is no way to force people out of high sec into null. That strategy has failed for years and will continue to fail. Null has to attract people on its own terms.

That strategy has failed for years despite years of high sec income and security buffs! What could we possible be doing wrong?

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
#94 - 2012-06-21 11:40:25 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Nick Bete wrote:
Why do you hive mind geniuses of the goonies care? Let everyone play the damned game as they see fit.


We don't care if you move to nullsec or not. We do care, however, that actually living in nullsec (i.e. not just logging in your nullsec PvP main for fleets, but actually living there) is simply not worth the extra effort and risk compared to making ISK with a hisec l4 alt.

Also answer the other question I asked.


Then isnt the answer to improve things in null sec rather than carry on nerfing hi sec. LVL 4's have been hit a few times already, they are a shadow of their former selves.

Tal




Ohanka
#95 - 2012-06-21 11:42:27 UTC
Nobody in that thread wants highsec nerfed.

The majority actually want industry in Nullsec imrpoved to be onpar, if not better than highsec.

North Korea is Best Korea
Ceptia Cyna
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#96 - 2012-06-21 11:42:46 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
It is nonconstructive posts like this that make me feel shame for basing in High Sec.


Why? I just tell the truth. Whatever you do true highsec-players wont move nowhere but quit the game. It has been shown over the course of EvE-Online that you will never be able to force them to low or 0.0.

Accept the fact:

Change low to be more intresting on its own.
Change 0.0 to be more intresting on its own.

Can't stand it?
Won't hear it?

This is the solution > [ EXIT] <


Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#97 - 2012-06-21 11:43:34 UTC
Talon SilverHawk wrote:
LVL 4's have been hit a few times already, they are a shadow of their former selves.

Citation needed.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Ceptia Cyna
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#98 - 2012-06-21 11:52:53 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Talon SilverHawk wrote:
LVL 4's have been hit a few times already, they are a shadow of their former selves.

Citation needed.


Inferno Patch:

"NPC ships will no longer drop manufacturable T1 loot. NPCs will continue to drop modules, however T1 items which have a blueprint will no longer drop, making player manufacturing the primary source for these items."
Replaced with "metal scraps" reduced the overall loot that drops.

"Drone Loot Changes" - Drones Bounty + No Loot ads to less overall value if iam not misstaken.

Tyrannis
Level 5 Missions corrected to now only lead to low/0.0 again, reversed back from high-sec

2010 sometimes

I recall some balancing on Mining/Courier Missions that could be blitzed for a quite nice LP/ISK Income with very few effort.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#99 - 2012-06-21 11:53:58 UTC
Ceptia Cyna wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
It is nonconstructive posts like this that make me feel shame for basing in High Sec.


Why? I just tell the truth. Whatever you do true highsec-players wont move nowhere but quit the game. It has been shown over the course of EvE-Online that you will never be able to force them to low or 0.0.

Accept the fact:

Change low to be more intresting on its own.
Change 0.0 to be more intresting on its own.

Can't stand it?
Won't hear it?

This is the solution > [ EXIT] <




Then let me ask this. What circumstances would need to exist to entice, not force, but entice you (and by you I mean only you) to venture into Low Sec? What about Null Sec?

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Ceptia Cyna
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#100 - 2012-06-21 11:56:53 UTC
Nothing at all.

If you want more pew pew change the mechanics in low or mostly 0.0 that prevent fights to happen.

Do not try to get more people in low or 0.0 make it more attractive for the residents to fight / undock.