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Warfare & Tactics

 
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Faction Warfare: or How I learned to AFK in a frigate

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zero9300
Broski Bad End
#21 - 2012-06-21 00:38:54 UTC
chatgris wrote:

This I strongly oppose: Factional warfare is differentiated from null in that dispersed solo work is more valuable than big fleet fights in determining who wins. If you want fleet warfare, null is the place for it. FW actually provides incentives to disperse and run small gangs/solo rather than who can form the biggest blob and win.


I bolded part of your post because it is incredibly aloof to suggest some incredibly skilled soloers are the driving force behind the 'winning' side in faction warfare. The 12 :shobon: newbies from fweddit banding together on a site is doing the same to system control as the elite sfi soloer with 3 flavors of links in one system, who are all doing the same thing as an afterburning frigate idly orbiting a site.

If the objective is "to win faction warfare," ie: take the enemy systems, the most efficient way is to run as many sites with individual alts as possible. If an enemy actually comes around to contest you, the best course of action is simply to move to another site, as they are readily abundant (plus if the guys who chased you off actually wanted to take the site, they need to leave someone behind to sit on their hands for the base time + however long you were there, providing you enough time to do another site before worrying about them again).

The issue becomes one of conflicting goals:
-to take systems and reap massive amounts of spacegold off sites by avoiding fights whenever possible
-to find something to shoot, which is generally hindered by the fact that you need to idle on each site (or ignore the anoms completely and let your faction "lose")

the mechanics of FW are wholly circumstantial to any actual pvp content generated and will only happen because both sides got bored of taking systems--not actually taking systems
Mai Amarr Waifu
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2012-06-21 00:39:14 UTC
Duke Dantez wrote:
Lucia Denniard wrote:
Well, here are my thoughts for the evening, what if Faction Warfare worked like Incursions, and you earned LP into a pool which paid out when the system flipped? That'd encourage actually taking systems and offensively plexing in systems you intend to take.

My other thought is that complexes should be done in groups, so you could either crank up the rat difficulty, or just hold people there until the rats have died. Scram/web rats would work pretty well, holding down players for extended periods, leaving them open to possible PVP situations.

Any and all crazy ideas are appreciated.

Absolutely horrible idea!!

Isk hungry carebears will always figure out a way to out-wit the NPCs. Making the rats harder to kill and with more Ewar will only decrease the amount of small scale pvp and especially a lot of the 1v1s that happen in and around plexes. And you wont get rid of the smart carebear who figured out the trick to minimize effort whilst alone in a plex.

Go to high sec if you want incursions. the whole point of the plex is to generate pvp first and a stepping stone to flipping a system second.


The current meta doesn't generate fights in any shape or form.

It generates LP farmers who will always tend tward the side with the easier ability to solo farm for lp which is completely clear in minmatars case. You either need an army of alts or a fleet of 2 people in each system with no real way to flip a specific system because of the randomness involved with sites spawning.
zero9300
Broski Bad End
#23 - 2012-06-21 00:43:30 UTC
Duke Dantez wrote:
Lucia Denniard wrote:
Well, here are my thoughts for the evening, what if Faction Warfare worked like Incursions, and you earned LP into a pool which paid out when the system flipped? That'd encourage actually taking systems and offensively plexing in systems you intend to take.

My other thought is that complexes should be done in groups, so you could either crank up the rat difficulty, or just hold people there until the rats have died. Scram/web rats would work pretty well, holding down players for extended periods, leaving them open to possible PVP situations.

Any and all crazy ideas are appreciated.

Absolutely horrible idea!!

Isk hungry carebears will always figure out a way to out-wit the NPCs. Making the rats harder to kill and with more Ewar will only decrease the amount of small scale pvp and especially a lot of the 1v1s that happen in and around plexes. And you wont get rid of the smart carebear who figured out the trick to minimize effort whilst alone in a plex.

Go to high sec if you want incursions. the whole point of the plex is to generate pvp first and a stepping stone to flipping a system second.

I could probably get more fights sitting at belt 1 at 0 in any of these systems.
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Of Essence
#24 - 2012-06-21 00:43:35 UTC
zero9300 wrote:
chatgris wrote:

This I strongly oppose: Factional warfare is differentiated from null in that dispersed solo work is more valuable than big fleet fights in determining who wins. If you want fleet warfare, null is the place for it. FW actually provides incentives to disperse and run small gangs/solo rather than who can form the biggest blob and win.


I bolded part of your post because it is incredibly aloof to suggest some incredibly skilled soloers are the driving force behind the 'winning' side in faction warfare. The 12 :shobon: newbies from fweddit banding together on a site is doing the same to system control as the elite sfi soloer with 3 flavors of links in one system, who are all doing the same thing as an afterburning frigate idly orbiting a site.


I am not trying to suggest that at all. I agree that the current mechanics are best won by pve alts. I am merely disagreeing with the notion that the solution is to make taking complexes require *fleets*.
Mai Amarr Waifu
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2012-06-21 00:46:48 UTC
chatgris wrote:
zero9300 wrote:
chatgris wrote:

This I strongly oppose: Factional warfare is differentiated from null in that dispersed solo work is more valuable than big fleet fights in determining who wins. If you want fleet warfare, null is the place for it. FW actually provides incentives to disperse and run small gangs/solo rather than who can form the biggest blob and win.


I bolded part of your post because it is incredibly aloof to suggest some incredibly skilled soloers are the driving force behind the 'winning' side in faction warfare. The 12 :shobon: newbies from fweddit banding together on a site is doing the same to system control as the elite sfi soloer with 3 flavors of links in one system, who are all doing the same thing as an afterburning frigate idly orbiting a site.


I am not trying to suggest that at all. I agree that the current mechanics are best won by pve alts. I am merely disagreeing with the notion that the solution is to make taking complexes require *fleets*.


How about some form of a ticket system like in the Battlefield series, that capped at 5~ people, which depending on site/ship size you got a faster amount of tickets per second on the point?

With the addition of webbing/target painting rats I think that would make sites much more friendly to 'small gang pvp' considering 5 is a small gang in mostly everyones eyes.
zero9300
Broski Bad End
#26 - 2012-06-21 00:47:02 UTC
chatgris wrote:
zero9300 wrote:
chatgris wrote:

This I strongly oppose: Factional warfare is differentiated from null in that dispersed solo work is more valuable than big fleet fights in determining who wins. If you want fleet warfare, null is the place for it. FW actually provides incentives to disperse and run small gangs/solo rather than who can form the biggest blob and win.


I bolded part of your post because it is incredibly aloof to suggest some incredibly skilled soloers are the driving force behind the 'winning' side in faction warfare. The 12 :shobon: newbies from fweddit banding together on a site is doing the same to system control as the elite sfi soloer with 3 flavors of links in one system, who are all doing the same thing as an afterburning frigate idly orbiting a site.


I am not trying to suggest that at all. I agree that the current mechanics are best won by pve alts. I am merely disagreeing with the notion that the solution is to make taking complexes require *fleets*.

A solution is to make taking complexes require *combat ships* not fleets

In fact, if an individual pilot were able to do more damage to system control in a reasonable amount of time then he can now, he would likely see more fights if individual sites were more meaningful.
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Of Essence
#27 - 2012-06-21 00:50:27 UTC
zero9300 wrote:
A solution is to make taking complexes require *combat ships* not fleets


And that is a goal I agree with - for example, require all rats to be killed. There were also ideas thrown around to have the timer count down to begin state automatically, so if you chase a farmer away, at least they can't just instantly resume later and you don't have to sit there.

zero9300 wrote:

In fact, if an individual pilot were able to do more damage to system control in a reasonable amount of time then he can now, he would likely see more fights if individual sites were more meaningful.


This used to be the case, but CCP wisely increased the time it takes to flip a system. Much shorter than it is now, and you worry about going to sleep and then waking up unable to redock in your station with all your assets.
zero9300
Broski Bad End
#28 - 2012-06-21 00:57:37 UTC
The problem is that the mechanics of FW themselves don't motivate a fight.

Consider the following, chatgris:
Anyone who has decided to fight you in a plex did it because they wanted a fight (or a killmail, we will consider these equivalent).
They did not fight you for the plex money, they would be better off moving to another plex.
They did not fight you for the system control, you will log off in an hour or two having done little to the actual contest meter.
They did not fight you to have their faction "win"

They might as well have been on any celestial in system to fight you, though FW conveniently factored out the hassle of GCC, that is pretty much it.
zero9300
Broski Bad End
#29 - 2012-06-21 01:34:46 UTC  |  Edited by: zero9300
chatgris wrote:
zero9300 wrote:
A solution is to make taking complexes require *combat ships* not fleets


And that is a goal I agree with - for example, require all rats to be killed. There were also ideas thrown around to have the timer count down to begin state automatically, so if you chase a farmer away, at least they can't just instantly resume later and you don't have to sit there.

zero9300 wrote:

In fact, if an individual pilot were able to do more damage to system control in a reasonable amount of time then he can now, he would likely see more fights if individual sites were more meaningful.


This used to be the case, but CCP wisely increased the time it takes to flip a system. Much shorter than it is now, and you worry about going to sleep and then waking up unable to redock in your station with all your assets.

A system can be tuned to still be a lengthier switch, but require less monotony than entering plexes all day while combating the idle farming.

I can't quite remember the numbers for each site, but say you are doing outposts in a single system where each took one percent every 15 minutes. If they spawned back to back (which they don't, this is just for illustrative purposes) and you did each one, it would take 25 manhours to flip the system. Doing those hours in parallel is only possible by the number of sites. Given the reality of how sites spawn, "focusing" a system is wholly impossible. The control of systems is a general systemic approach, as a whole group of systems must be run as nebulously as their sites are willing to spawn.


A precursor suggestion would be to have static sites which would have npcs spawns (which need to be killed) much like the current system, once taken, it would begin to shift the contest bar towards one side, slowly, leading to an ihub vulnerability. An occupation force of npcs will sit there. If a system is left alone while being contesting, then it shouldn't require an absurd amount of activity (25manhours) to flip. Smaller numbered fleets could still dance around larger ones by doing more sites in parallel and move faster from system to system, but the efforts of large fleets can be appreciable, as being unengaged still shifts contension meaningfully.

Defining a set of mechanics that don't marginalize anyone (fleet-goers, gangbuddies, or soloers alike) while promoting fun (the fights I hope everyone joined FW for) will take time and discussion, but step 1 is admitting that the current set is garbage for setting up timely engagements.
Rengerel
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2012-06-21 03:31:11 UTC
I'm relatively new to FW, and unlike most that jumped into minmatar to speedtank offensive plexes, i've been soloing defensive ones to get a feel for the whole process. Watching militia chat, it seems there are certain bottlenecks where fleets will form to bash at gate camps. Most of the time it seems to be small groups or soloers running missions or looking for small scale pvp. Besides those people that want to get the most from their LP, there doesn't seem to be much concern when a system is reaching 80%+ contested, as it still won't make people go defensive plexing. I guess because it does take so long even for that final bit to flip, they figure someone will go and save it eventually.

My suggestion would be to have the rate of change increase as you get toward each end. If < 30% or > 70% instead of 0.9% for a major, you get 5%. That might lead more people into the system to either try and make it stable, or to fight to flip it. More people = more chance of a fight. The way it is now, no one wants to defensive plex because all you get is corp standing, while offensive plexing gives you the LP. If you could make a real difference defensive plexing though, I think more people would do it.
Duke Dantez
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2012-06-21 04:18:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Duke Dantez
zero9300 wrote:
The problem is that the mechanics of FW themselves don't motivate a fight.

Consider the following, chatgris:
Anyone who has decided to fight you in a plex did it because they wanted a fight (or a killmail, we will consider these equivalent).
They did not fight you for the plex money, they would be better off moving to another plex.
They did not fight you for the system control, you will log off in an hour or two having done little to the actual contest meter.
They did not fight you to have their faction "win"

They might as well have been on any celestial in system to fight you, though FW conveniently factored out the hassle of GCC, that is pretty much it.

Wrong. I force fights all the time in and around plexes. If you can only get a fight when someone else lets you then that says more about your pvp skills than it does about game mechanics.

I logged on for only 30 minutes today and was able to get not one but two kills from plexers that did not want to engage me. The thing is I had to do some chasing to do it. Not everything in this game is supposed to be easy.

And don’t talk to me about the LP farmers who go deep behind enemy lines and contest systems that are hovering around 7%. We all know if you want to get a fight you go to the front lines and hit a plex in a system that is 50% or more.

You are also flat out wrong about the new FW mechanics reducing the amount of PVP. Have a look at any FW KB and you will see an increase in kills/losses ten-fold ever since the patch hit. You can't argue against those numbers I'm sorry. I'm not saying the patch is perfect but increasing the Ewar on NPC's will not only decrease PVP but it will do nothing to stop the "afk plexers."
sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade
Ghost Legion.
#32 - 2012-06-21 06:50:07 UTC
Just like to point out that winning the war will never be as easy as taking all enemy systems. This is because your enemy can simple up sticks and move to a system outside of FW and park themselves in a place you can do nothing about. Another reason being the fact they can just join your faction with an 1 minute old alt and farm your LPs.

CCP heard people bitching about plexes being unrewarding and meaningless, so changed them in Inferno. Now plexes are rewarding, but remain mostly meaningless. Systems are flipping back from one militia to another because people dont care about defending anything other then the system they live it. Its pointless to defend anything else.

All this chest beating about winning, everyone knows, should you lose your home system you just pop over a couple jumps and carry on.

Now if CCP made Miltia Faction Standing requirement 2.0 and gave anyone leaving FW an instantly -4.0 Faction standing hit. Then **** would have some meaning. As losing your home system and dropping FW to move would be a huge hit on your ability to simply rejoin a day later.

Don't ask about Italics, just tilt your head.
Shadow Adanza
Gold Crest Salvage
#33 - 2012-06-21 07:25:28 UTC
zero9300 wrote:

I could probably get more fights sitting at belt 1 at 0 in any of these systems.

QFFT
Reason #5 why Shadow despises plexing.

Are you suggesting coconuts migrate?
Shadow Adanza
Gold Crest Salvage
#34 - 2012-06-21 07:32:47 UTC
Duke Dantez wrote:


I logged on for only 30 minutes today and was able to get not one but two kills from plexers that did not want to engage me. The thing is I had to do some chasing to do it. Not everything in this game is supposed to be easy.


Something about killing people who don't want to engage... I've never particularly enjoyed it. It's not as much fun.
To me it's like... butchering a calf as it's just born.
Which, given the patience to chase... it actually is easy as those plexing ships often have no weapons or crappy ones.

Are you suggesting coconuts migrate?
Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#35 - 2012-06-21 09:21:23 UTC
I really do not understand why everybody is moaning about the new FW mechanics. I think it is much better than the older one since it creates a real forefront and generates nice small scale PVP opportunities.

Yeah with regards to AFK plexing there might be some improvement potential. For example it would be enough if the button would stop running down once NPC ships are on grid. This would force the AFK runner to get active and at least kill those NPCs. But honestly spoken: I do not see a real issue in AFK plex runners... if you find one just kill him.
Capqu
Half Empty
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#36 - 2012-06-21 10:01:46 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Dosnix
Meditril wrote:
I really do not understand why everybody is moaning about the new FW mechanics. I think it is much better than the older one since it creates a real forefront and generates nice small scale PVP opportunities.

Yeah with regards to AFK plexing there might be some improvement potential. For example it would be enough if the button would stop running down once NPC ships are on grid. This would force the AFK runner to get active and at least kill those NPCs. But honestly spoken: I do not see a real issue in AFK plex runners... if you find one just kill him.


why would you spend 15 min hunting down a 500k rifter when you can just make your own mini alt and put a frig in a plex and make lods of emone

*snip* some people want to do faction warfare for fights and not dosh, but when your only targets are afk rifters . . . triple dot m8

edit maybe make the timers a function of how many ships are within range? sure it makes blobbing the plexes more prevalent but that to me isn't really a problem

Edit: bad word ;) Fixed it for you
ISD Dosnix

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5tVbVu9Mkg
zero9300
Broski Bad End
#37 - 2012-06-21 14:08:51 UTC  |  Edited by: zero9300
Duke Dantez wrote:

Wrong. I force fights all the time in and around plexes. If you can only get a fight when someone else lets you then that says more about your pvp skills than it does about game mechanics.

I logged on for only 30 minutes today and was able to get not one but two kills from plexers that did not want to engage me. The thing is I had to do some chasing to do it. Not everything in this game is supposed to be easy.

And don’t talk to me about the LP farmers who go deep behind enemy lines and contest systems that are hovering around 7%. We all know if you want to get a fight you go to the front lines and hit a plex in a system that is 50% or more.

You are also flat out wrong about the new FW mechanics reducing the amount of PVP. Have a look at any FW KB and you will see an increase in kills/losses ten-fold ever since the patch hit. You can't argue against those numbers I'm sorry. I'm not saying the patch is perfect but increasing the Ewar on NPC's will not only decrease PVP but it will do nothing to stop the "afk plexers."

Uhh, it is more telling of the skills of the people you "force" to fight. What exactly did you kill? How did he not see you come into system? Or see you coming on long scan? Or see you coming on short scan? Why didn't he warp off when you were 60km from the capture point? Against an aware, competent pilot, you cannot force a fight in those plexes.
If I wanted to force someone to fight I would go back to killing TEST ratters in fountain. Oops, I waved my epeen around, I will stop that ad hominem garbage if you agree to.
edit: if I only got 2 kills in 30 minutes of chasing around idiots my bloodlust would be quite unsated.

I understand you TRIAD and wolfsbrigade guys have a lot to gain by keeping the status quo abusing the current system. I am by no means saying the mechanics are worse than the old ones, but they are still pretty garbage.
420rainbowdash1488xxx
Doomheim
#38 - 2012-06-21 14:12:47 UTC  |  Edited by: 420rainbowdash1488xxx
Duke Dantez wrote:

Wrong. I force fights all the time in and around plexes. If you can only get a fight when someone else lets you then that says more about your pvp skills than it does about game mechanics.

I logged on for only 30 minutes today and was able to get not one but two kills from plexers that did not want to engage me. The thing is I had to do some chasing to do it. Not everything in this game is supposed to be easy.

And don’t talk to me about the LP farmers who go deep behind enemy lines and contest systems that are hovering around 7%. We all know if you want to get a fight you go to the front lines and hit a plex in a system that is 50% or more.

You are also flat out wrong about the new FW mechanics reducing the amount of PVP. Have a look at any FW KB and you will see an increase in kills/losses ten-fold ever since the patch hit. You can't argue against those numbers I'm sorry. I'm not saying the patch is perfect but increasing the Ewar on NPC's will not only decrease PVP but it will do nothing to stop the "afk plexers."


i'm glad you enjoy afterburner frigate 1v1s with t3 links so much. some of us feel like this shouldn't be the ONLY type of pvp encouraged by faction warfare. some of us want fleets to be encouraged, not punished. some of us want to see people have a reason to put their balls on the line by flying something bigger than a frigate every once in a while. ever wonder why you don't see cruisers soloing outposts? or battlecruisers soloing majors? there's no incentive to risk anything bigger than a frigate in faction warfare, and there's no incentive to run fleets.

when you're in a frigate you're cheap, you can travel around with impunity, and you can align out in 3 seconds or less. you can run any outpost with the right fit. (you have no chance of 'forcing a fight' against any frigate who isnt afk or something).

i swear, arguing with some of you vets i feel like i'm just telling you what you already know but refuse to acknowledge.
Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#39 - 2012-06-21 14:25:30 UTC
Capqu wrote:

why would you spend 15 min hunting down a 500k rifter when you can just make your own mini alt and put a frig in a plex and make lods of emone


Here are some reasons why I would do this:

  1. I am not playing this game for earning ISK, I am playing it for fun. ISK earning = job, and job is something I have in RL.
  2. If he is really AFK then it takes me one minute max to kill him... so not much time lost.
  3. If he is not AFK and starts playing cat & mouse with me then hey, great! At least I have some fun hunting him which is also a valid form of PVP.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#40 - 2012-06-21 14:51:17 UTC
Shadow Adanza wrote:
zero9300 wrote:

I could probably get more fights sitting at belt 1 at 0 in any of these systems.

QFFT
Reason #5 why Shadow despises plexing.

FW plexes offer ship limited combat away from tackle/blob with bigger ships/hot drop model of 'pvp' provided at belts. That is the good thing about them.