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Making nullsec vibrant again

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Adelphie
The Lone Wolves.
#561 - 2012-06-20 23:25:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Adelphie
How about a marketing campaign then?

Come to nullsec, it's safer than you think.

Needs ponies, and rainbows to work.

People of general discussion - make it so...
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#562 - 2012-06-20 23:29:07 UTC
Adelphie wrote:
How about a marketing campaign then?

Come to nullsec, it's safer than you think.

Needs ponies, and rainbows to work.

People of general discussion - make it so...

it's either not safe, or more effort

generally as i despise eve-work i think that the fact that you don't really have to pay close attention to a mission is the appeal over the lower risk, so the l4s are clear effort:isk winners

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Delen Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#563 - 2012-06-20 23:29:16 UTC
Xen Solarus wrote:
Ban Bindy wrote:

The current cult of shooting non-combatants in high sec provides easy kills for those who live and die by the billboard.

These are the factors I think have killed null sec play.


^ This. Make High-Sec more secure, and force all the lazy people that claim to be doing PVP (by killing defenceless targets) to actually go and do PVP (Where the targets actually shoot back).

I've not lived in null for a long whiles now. Has everyone become best friends now? Can't someone just..... start a war or something? Lol


From what I see, which admittedly is in large part from the hisec perspective, I kind've agree and disagree with what's above. I think Ban is right but not because of the killings themselves. I think it's the killings along with the attitude that we see from a lot of PvPers towards hisec dwellers that puts people off null (and low). Rightly or wrongly, they feel victimised by that kind of play.

I'm sure miners will correct me if I'm wrong, but I actually don't think many miners would have too much of an issue with the occasional loss of a ship (though they might feel annoyed at the time), but it's the sheer volume of killings that are happening now (not just because of Hulkageddon). It feels like griefing, even if it's within the game rules. Suicide ganking also feels cheap - like running up to someone and punching them really hard in the balls, plus the result is almost a foregone conclusion. And then have the person laugh at you with all their friends, especially if you say anything in public about it (come to think of it, there's some parallels with bullying there)

(cutting out some stuff I wrote about tanking etc, 'cos that's getting off-topic).

Anyway, to get back on point, those people are unlikely to head into null, even if they have some interest in it. It's not simply because they're hisec carebears, because if you like mining, there's more lucrative stuff in low and null. I think it's more to do with:

1) They feel it's the PvP community that are against them, so they're not going to make themselves MORE vulnerable (whether there actually is a PvP community is besides the point)

2) Hisec is their home, and people generally explore outwards from a safe base. If people feel their home base is under threat, they tend not to explore out from it. In real life, an unsafe home may lead to a person moving somewhere else, but this is usually a last resort - in game terms, if it gets that bad, people are more likely to move to another game than feel like they're being forced

Like I said, I'd love to hear from any miners on that theory. Post with an alt if you're afraid you'll become a target.
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
#564 - 2012-06-20 23:29:29 UTC
Adelphie wrote:
Easy access to null is a reoccurring theme.

Would more wormholes directly from empire to null be a good solution?


It might be and access to facilities so you don't have to jump in an out all the time and can base there, whether that's a new class of ship "Explorer" for example with the fire power but holds that are large enough that you can stay in 0.0 for extended periods. (just an idea)


The problem is say you want to ninja rat or mine or even player rat (I'm talking from a small corp or casual player point of view) having to jump in and out of 0.0 every day is to much of a risk vrs the reward. Oh you can do it, for example by scouting or using downtime but if your time limited those aren't always options.


Tal


Bootleg Jack
ACME Mineral and Gas
#565 - 2012-06-20 23:30:45 UTC
Adelphie wrote:
In Eve I am almost exclusively a small gang/solo pvper, and have been for the past few years. I've noticed the traffic in null slowly reducing to a point where it is actually safer to be around null than highsec in many cases, which in my mind is not the way things should be. From a purely selfish point of view I would like to see this trend reverse and see null becoming as vibrant as it has been in days gone by so I've got stuff to shoot.

I explored why this has been happening a while ago, and it generated some really interesting ideas, so I'd like to revisit it. If nothing else it gives the players and CCP something to think about.

There are a few reasons that I can see for a reduction of traffic, mainly caused by a lack of migration of players into null:

- High barriers to entry for newer players/corps/alliances to move to null
- Not enough of a carrot to entice players away from highsec
- A lack of differentiated content in null vs. other areas of space.
- Current alliances entrenched in their space.
- Not enough reason for industrialists to be in null

So my question to the masses is this: What features could be introduced to reverse the trend, and increase the number of people wanting to come to null?

Before we get into the inevitable flame session that is General Discussion, I wanted to stress that I don't want this to be a "y u no pvp carebears" thread. There's enough of those already. Equally, for people who want to stay in highsec - that's fine too... nobody's forcing you to leave!


Well, the answer is definitally not the two major themes so far:
1) Nerf High Sec
2) Nerf PvP to Make Null Safe

The way to fill a PvP area is to make the PvP awesome, there are millions of PvPers in the world who will play if the PvP doesn't suck.

Luring or forcing bears is dumb, even if you put in a great carrot they will just show up, farm the carrot and leave. If you force them they will just quit and all thatdoes is reduce the resource for game improvement.

UO showed that you cannot populate a PvP zone with PvE players. That road is the road to destruction of the game.


I'm an American, English is my second language...
dontbanmebro
Doomheim
#566 - 2012-06-20 23:31:36 UTC
Adelphie wrote:
But this again is another barrier to entry for people coming in and exploring what null has to offer.


Just gonna grab this first. This is the same argument that people say about gate-camps and bubbles because they can't "explore nullsec". If your idea of "coming out" to nullsec is to tool around in your mission drake and "see the sights", you've already lost. This is a failure of transitions, which is almost solely CCP's fault and problem to fix.

However, neutering jumpbridges because you think that will lead to more people wandering around nullsec is an absolutely awful argument, just as awful as people who want to "get rid of gatecamps" because their mission drakes keep dying there. People need to be better prepared for the nature of nullsec, not have that danger nerfed down to their level.

Overall the rest is a reasonable post, but your argument has been addressed already (which was not your corpmate's original argument at all btw).

The lack of low-level conflict is a serious issue that almost everyone, besides bots I guess, would like to see addressed. The solution is more incentives for roaming gangs and more incentives to actually be in space defending against them instead of just docking up to let them pass. Removing jump bridges just means less people altogether in nullsec, and less reason for people to claim space and fight to defend it, which means less target for roaming gangs.

I will add that this is the first time I think I've ever heard a JB whine from nullsec roamers in terms of allowing people to better defend their space from roaming gangs, and I highly doubt you'll gain any traction with it whatsoever.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#567 - 2012-06-20 23:32:57 UTC
Talon SilverHawk wrote:
Adelphie wrote:
Easy access to null is a reoccurring theme.

Would more wormholes directly from empire to null be a good solution?


It might be and access to facilities so you don't have to jump in an out all the time and can base there, whether that's a new class of ship "Explorer" for example with the fire power but holds that are large enough that you can stay in 0.0 for extended periods. (just an idea)


The problem is say you want to ninja rat or mine or even player rat (I'm talking from a small corp or casual player point of view) having to jump in and out of 0.0 every day is to much of a risk vrs the reward. Oh you can do it, for example by scouting or using downtime but if your time limited those aren't always options.


Tal



null isn't for solo players and nobody is interested in catering to you, if you want that go to lowsec or wormholes

0.0 is for empires

casual players in the empires are great! i'm one of them. casual players who think they can treat 0.0 like a slightly more dangerous l4? well they can **** right off, if you want to experience 0.0 before joining a corp or making your own go to npc 0.0

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#568 - 2012-06-20 23:34:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Adelphie wrote:
I have a knowledge of nullsec which is slightly different to a large proportion of the population in that I've been part of the whole alliance leadership side, but have focused on non-sov holding nullsec pvp for quite a long time.

I think this thread indicates that there are a lot of perceived dangers of nullsec, which aren't always true, however the fact that people perceive them as being a large risk is a problem in itself.

The jump-bridge discussion is an interesting one - and as Riedle's corp-mate I can see where he is coming from.

The area of space we live in is relatively quiet, however has a decent (and hostile) jump-bridge network, which the local inhabitants use to good effect. Some of the numbers banded around are slight exaggerations, but the testament holds true - jump bridge networks provide a barrier to entry for small gang pvp, as fleets can be on top of you from staging systems very quickly.

Now it is arguable that this is fair, as the sov holders have earned the right to have these jump-bridges, however the perceived threat of not knowing if you are going to be jumped is enough to put people off traveling to these areas for risk of being ganked by an unexpected blob. But this again is another barrier to entry for people coming in and exploring what null has to offer.

Jump bridges can be used to outmaneuver fast hostile roaming fleets running around inside their secured space, to corner and force a fight out of them. Which is sensible because, what, do you have to chase a nanofleet potentially forever just to defend your space? This is countered, by the way, by plotting out the holders' JB network and placing yourself at chokepoints. They're also useful for individual 0.0 members to cross a lot of space they already hold with some convenience.

What Riedle did was then make the leap in logic that jump bridges therefore were the foundation of all large alliances' military might. In reality deployment staging, jump clones and ships with jump drives are far, far more relevant when dealing with actual threats to a sov-holding alliance's sovereignty (ie: not roaming gangs). So calling to remove JBs to "make nullsec more vibrant" were met with disfavor.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#569 - 2012-06-20 23:36:01 UTC
Bootleg Jack wrote:

The way to fill a PvP area is to make the PvP awesome, there are millions of PvPers in the world who will play if the PvP doesn't suck.

wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong

the 0.0 pvp ecosystem must have gank targets it is not a realm for hounorable space jousting

you fill it by giving the low-level gank targets a reason to be there despite the ganking, then the higher level predators prey on them then higher level predators prey on those, and soon you have a viable ecosystem again

when the prey die out, the pvpers do as well because what a pvper wants to do is win: you bait them out by giving them a target to devour

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Dramaticus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#570 - 2012-06-20 23:37:13 UTC
Lemming your 13 man hac gang right into 50 dudes isn't really a failing of jump bridges or null sec

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#571 - 2012-06-20 23:37:22 UTC
the foundational idea for fixing 0.0 is "farms and fields": you give people incentives to live and build things in 0.0, so you can burn them down

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Adelphie
The Lone Wolves.
#572 - 2012-06-20 23:37:31 UTC
Just to be clear - I think jump bridges do more good than harm. They reduce a lot of the PITA side of null on a day to day basis

I just wanted to say that they can be a detterant for roaming gangs when utilized effectively (which is kind of the point of them).
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
#573 - 2012-06-20 23:38:16 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Talon SilverHawk wrote:
Adelphie wrote:
Easy access to null is a reoccurring theme.

Would more wormholes directly from empire to null be a good solution?


It might be and access to facilities so you don't have to jump in an out all the time and can base there, whether that's a new class of ship "Explorer" for example with the fire power but holds that are large enough that you can stay in 0.0 for extended periods. (just an idea)


The problem is say you want to ninja rat or mine or even player rat (I'm talking from a small corp or casual player point of view) having to jump in and out of 0.0 every day is to much of a risk vrs the reward. Oh you can do it, for example by scouting or using downtime but if your time limited those aren't always options.


Tal



null isn't for solo players and nobody is interested in catering to you, if you want that go to lowsec or wormholes

0.0 is for empires

casual players in the empires are great! i'm one of them. casual players who think they can treat 0.0 like a slightly more dangerous l4? well they can **** right off, if you want to experience 0.0 before joining a corp or making your own go to npc 0.0


You keep talking absolute tosh mate. 0.0 is for anyone in corp or out,. I've lived in 0.0 solo and in corps. Anyone who says that any particular segment of the EVE community be it solo or large alliance can't be catered for in all areas of EVE, well they can f*ck right off as well.

Tal


Oisin Sandovar
Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
#574 - 2012-06-20 23:38:17 UTC
Weaselior wrote:

they're two different issues

first is why nobody builds anything in 0.0

seperately, is why there's so few ratters and miners in 0.0 - these people need to exist to have people to shoot casually when you don't want to rally up the whole fleet and invade, they're a critical part of the 0.0 ecosystem but l4s and highsec incursions makes them rare


Might be two different issues, but it seems to me that improving the industrial side of the house in 0.0 is needed in order to spur more growth and encourage people to come out to 0.0.

Personally, the readings I get from 0.0 are not encouraging. I think what will I do in 0.0? Apparently, not mining, not industry, and not missionning. I don't really enjoy PvP and I wouldn't want to be doing it all the time.

So, I'm not inclined to move out to 0.0 because I don't see anything of interest out there.

TBH, I see 0.0 as permanently stuck in wild, wild west mode and no clear path that it could improve over time.

Besides, if you nerf L4s, then how will people pay for their PvP?

"And the only people I fear are those who never have doubts", Billy Joel, Shades of Grey
dontbanmebro
Doomheim
#575 - 2012-06-20 23:39:01 UTC  |  Edited by: dontbanmebro
Weaselior wrote:


Talon SilverHawk wrote:
Tal


null isn't for solo players and nobody is interested in catering to you, if you want that go to lowsec or wormholes

0.0 is for empires

casual players in the empires are great! i'm one of them. casual players who think they can treat 0.0 like a slightly more dangerous l4? well they can **** right off, if you want to experience 0.0 before joining a corp or making your own go to npc 0.0


Can't repeat this enough. Nobody gives a **** about the guy who wants to sneak in and not impact anything. That's the whole point of wanting more people because we want more impact. Nullsec with double the current participants would be a charnel house of conquest, betrayal, last minute saves, humiliating defeats, on and on and on. Again, that human drama that brings people to Eve and keeps them paying that subscription.

If that's not for you, then great. Good for you. Nobody gives a **** about you either way.
Bootleg Jack
ACME Mineral and Gas
#576 - 2012-06-20 23:41:31 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Bootleg Jack wrote:

The way to fill a PvP area is to make the PvP awesome, there are millions of PvPers in the world who will play if the PvP doesn't suck.

wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong

the 0.0 pvp ecosystem must have gank targets it is not a realm for hounorable space jousting

you fill it by giving the low-level gank targets a reason to be there despite the ganking, then the higher level predators prey on them then higher level predators prey on those, and soon you have a viable ecosystem again

when the prey die out, the pvpers do as well because what a pvper wants to do is win: you bait them out by giving them a target to devour


Maybe you are that kind of PvPer who sucks and wants easy targets but that is not everyone.

I'm an American, English is my second language...
Adelphie
The Lone Wolves.
#577 - 2012-06-20 23:42:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Adelphie
This is quickly getting back on track - I like.

One thing which a few people have said on this page is that there needs to be more incentive to do small gang pvp. One of the most compelling features I have heard is the idea of raidable moon mining pos's where a small gang can effectively attack, and steal, moon minerals from larger alliances. Obviously this would have to be well balanced and thought out, but I think it has legs.

Gives small gangs a reason to to attack hostile space - gives alliances reasons to defend.

What are peoples thoughts on this?
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#578 - 2012-06-20 23:44:35 UTC
BuckStrider wrote:
Adelphie wrote:
In Eve I am almost exclusively a small gang/solo pvper.!


Problem Identified.

Just join Goons/TEST ...I mean you CAN join those other renter null sec alliances like AAA or Cascade or even IAC. But why set yourself up as a target because one of those 'other' alliance leaders **** off 'The Martini' at the wrong time.


Champion idea, old boy!

To whom do I transfer the recruitment fee, please?

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#579 - 2012-06-20 23:44:49 UTC
Oisin Sandovar wrote:
Personally, the readings I get from 0.0 are not encouraging. I think what will I do in 0.0? Apparently, not mining, not industry, and not missionning. I don't really enjoy PvP and I wouldn't want to be doing it all the time.

Mining's still doable, it just requires more effort and carries more risk after you've actually mined the ore. Missioning is replaced by sanctums and havens etc, and do pay more than L4s, but again, more risk.

Oisin Sandovar wrote:
Besides, if you nerf L4s, then how will people pay for their PvP?

Moving out to nullsec and do things there is one thing. you can do, it's just not so attractive right now because of L4s' lack of effort and risk.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#580 - 2012-06-20 23:46:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Aryth
Delen Ormand wrote:
Xen Solarus wrote:
Ban Bindy wrote:

The current cult of shooting non-combatants in high sec provides easy kills for those who live and die by the billboard.

These are the factors I think have killed null sec play.


^ This. Make High-Sec more secure, and force all the lazy people that claim to be doing PVP (by killing defenceless targets) to actually go and do PVP (Where the targets actually shoot back).

I've not lived in null for a long whiles now. Has everyone become best friends now? Can't someone just..... start a war or something? Lol


From what I see, which admittedly is in large part from the hisec perspective, I kind've agree and disagree with what's above. I think Ban is right but not because of the killings themselves. I think it's the killings along with the attitude that we see from a lot of PvPers towards hisec dwellers that puts people off null (and low). Rightly or wrongly, they feel victimised by that kind of play.

I'm sure miners will correct me if I'm wrong, but I actually don't think many miners would have too much of an issue with the occasional loss of a ship (though they might feel annoyed at the time), but it's the sheer volume of killings that are happening now (not just because of Hulkageddon). It feels like griefing, even if it's within the game rules. Suicide ganking also feels cheap - like running up to someone and punching them really hard in the balls, plus the result is almost a foregone conclusion. And then have the person laugh at you with all their friends, especially if you say anything in public about it (come to think of it, there's some parallels with bullying there)


Because it is economic terrorism. The whole point is to inflict terror and market changes. Yes, it is a punch to the balls, that is what makes it effective. Welcome to the new EVE. Gameplay has evolved to include null sec alliances waging market warfare at the galaxy wide scale. Dead miners are the means to an end.

Hopefully CCP doesn't go too far trying to squash this type of gameplay. I don't think we have tested the limits of it quite yet.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.