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Making nullsec vibrant again

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arcca jeth
Dark Alliance
#521 - 2012-06-20 22:29:30 UTC
Kuehnelt wrote:
arcca jeth wrote:
3. NPC pirate faction missions. It would be a lot of fun running missions in low and null for hidden or hard to find NPC pirate factions. This could open a whole new world of possibilities for pirates with low security status. Again, the risk has to be worth the reward so the payout of bounties for the kills and the mission payouts would need to be substantially better than high sec.


These already exist in NPC nullsec. There are even two pirate epic arcs that you only need a decent frigate to complete - player knowledge is much more of a barrier to them than SP. Standings are also a barrier if you've made a habit of killing pirates, or if the pirates you'd like to work for are hostile to a faction that has come to love you (for instance, not even Diplomacy V gets my Blood/Sansha faction standings to the point where I'm no longer restricted to L1 missions.)



is the risk worth the reward in terms of comparison to L4 high sec's? I know there is already some of this in place but when it comes to the rewards, no experience to know better.
dontbanmebro
Doomheim
#522 - 2012-06-20 22:33:21 UTC
People play in null despite the risk/reward imbalances because they enjoy the human drama. They like being a part of something bigger than themselves, even if it's just a cheap veneer painted over pixel spaceships.

The biggest job I had when I ran a nullsec corp was to keep people informed, but in a way that told a story or a "narrative". That's what people wanted more than anything, and that's what kept them logging in and playing.

When we talk about improving nullsec, we're talking about adding greater depth to the elements behind that human drama, so it's not just a few select content-creators driving everything, but a more natural and organic development of cooperation and conflict driven by the very mechanics of the game.

The amazing stories that come out of nullsec are largely in spite of game mechanics, as opposed to a direct and engineered product of them.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#523 - 2012-06-20 22:35:13 UTC
Malphilos wrote:

Why? As in: what's the objective?

The objective is to bring the risk/reward for activities in line with each other. If an activity (say, 0.0 ratting) is significantly riskier than another (l4 missions) but not significantly more profitable then we have a problem. The additional risk is not compensated by additional reward so people performing that activity will decrease. As ratters & miners are the basic prey of 0.0 gankers, those activities being strictly inferior to empire-based activities disrupts the 0.0 system. This is how level 4 missions, by being excessively profitable, actively hurt nullsec. This can be fixed by adjusting every nullsec activity and every other activity up to bring l4s in line or you nerf l4s down. The former is obviously a lot more work and has the potential to severely disrupt the rest of the economy and is therefore inferior to the l4 nerf.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Rer Eirikr
The Scope
#524 - 2012-06-20 22:35:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Rer Eirikr
arcca jeth wrote:
is the risk worth the reward in terms of comparison to L4 high sec's? I know there is already some of this in place but when it comes to the rewards, no experience to know better.


It varies. I enjoyed doing Angel missions in Curse, but there would be times where I couldn't do anything do to either being heavily camped or outnumbered. When I could farm the Level 4 missions however, trading in LPs for Cynabal BPCs was pretty awesome.

dontbanmebro wrote:
The amazing stories that come out of nullsec are largely in spite of game mechanics, as opposed to a direct and engineered product of them.


Ahh, see, I knew you could informative post :)
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
#525 - 2012-06-20 22:39:40 UTC
arcca jeth wrote:
is the risk worth the reward in terms of comparison to L4 high sec's? I know there is already some of this in place but when it comes to the rewards, no experience to know better.


I don't know about the rewards yet -- I'm still stuck grinding L1 storylines :-) Also I've never done highsec L4s to have something to compare them against. There are 1mil rats all over the place and also combat exploration sites, but shooting (local) rats would just mean more L1 storylines. I do know that pirate LP store ammo is bloody worthless.

And for me, the risk is part of the reward. The other day I blew through a bubbled Sabre+Hurricane+Drake gate camp, having a Talos on the other side, in my Arbitrator. More recently I took a Succubus out and tackled a Hyperion in a belt - but had to leave after he managed his drones better than I managed shooting them. There are recons all about and I am very aware of them. In highsec there's rarely a reason to remember that you're playing a multiplayer game.

But still, they exist. Pick friendlier pirates to work for than I did and you can get a quicker idea of what to expect.
Rer Eirikr
The Scope
#526 - 2012-06-20 22:40:58 UTC
Its mostly faction ship BPCs that make the real cash.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#527 - 2012-06-20 22:41:13 UTC
To counter an argument before it's made: it is indeed possible to rat in a way that makes it extremely unlikely you'll get ganked: but that requires constant vigilance (or a bot). That means that the effort/isk ratio becomes highly skewed in favor of l4s - they may be the same low risk but the nullsec ratting is a pain in the ass.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
dontbanmebro
Doomheim
#528 - 2012-06-20 22:41:18 UTC  |  Edited by: dontbanmebro
Rer Eirikr wrote:
Ahh, see, I knew you could informative post :)


Hey, if more people were asking questions and less people making uninformed walls of text, I'm sure a lot of us who actually know a thing or two about the topic would be making more positive and informative posts.

Posting on GD is usually like trying to empty an ocean of self-righteous stupidity with a spoon.
Josef Djugashvilis
#529 - 2012-06-20 22:43:21 UTC
It is a mistake to see level 4 missions as an end in themselves rather than a means to an end.

I run level 4 missions to pay for pvp, which I fail at on a regular basis.

This is not a signature.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#530 - 2012-06-20 22:44:20 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
It is a mistake to see level 4 missions as an end in themselves rather than a means to an end.

I run level 4 missions to pay for pvp, which I fail at on a regular basis.

As do a lot of people who "live" in nullsec.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Rer Eirikr
The Scope
#531 - 2012-06-20 22:45:08 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
It is a mistake to see level 4 missions as an end in themselves rather than a means to an end.

I run level 4 missions to pay for pvp, which I fail at on a regular basis.

As do a lot of people who "live" in nullsec.


And now we've come to full circle of why L4s are a problem and/or why NullSec Industry really needs a boost.
dontbanmebro
Doomheim
#532 - 2012-06-20 22:50:31 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
It is a mistake to see level 4 missions as an end in themselves rather than a means to an end.

I run level 4 missions to pay for pvp, which I fail at on a regular basis.


The problem with the "make money in xsec to pvp in ysec" theory is that it inherently means less pvp in ysec. Furthermore, that pvp is less organic and more contrived, which in turn makes it less compelling and engaging. You want to create an "ecosystem" of conflict and cooperation that starts with people in space making money.

Funny enough, I actually think hisec incursions were great in theory. A bunch of people in fleets shooting red crosses is just an inch away from a bunch of people in fleets shooting each other, or shooting each other to get at more red crosses. I would love to see a balance to hisec income where incursions are a natural and sensible progression from level 4s, followed by another natural progression to low, null, and WHs.
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#533 - 2012-06-20 22:53:20 UTC
Rer Eirikr wrote:
arcca jeth wrote:
is the risk worth the reward in terms of comparison to L4 high sec's? I know there is already some of this in place but when it comes to the rewards, no experience to know better.


It varies. I enjoyed doing Angel missions in Curse, but there would be times where I couldn't do anything do to either being heavily camped or outnumbered. When I could farm the Level 4 missions however, trading in LPs for Cynabal BPCs was pretty awesome.

dontbanmebro wrote:
The amazing stories that come out of nullsec are largely in spite of game mechanics, as opposed to a direct and engineered product of them.


Ahh, see, I knew you could informative post :)


I was doing Guristas missions out in Venal for a while. But I just rolled an alt to do faction warfare, because it pays better for way less risk and gives me access to almost the same exact set of things to spend LP on.

So for those interested, nullsec does have missions. From what I've heard, the base pay is better than highsec missions. From my experience, the risk/reward is just barely worth it, and only if you can cash out the LP for high demand faction stuff. With the way faction warfare is going, you can't just pack a covops full of any old implants and expect massive profits. You have to pick and choose items unique to that LP store.
Josef Djugashvilis
#534 - 2012-06-20 22:53:42 UTC
Level 4 missions are only a problem if one chooses to define them as such, and then put forward spurious arguments to support the thesis.





This is not a signature.
Xen Solarus
Furious Destruction and Salvage
#535 - 2012-06-20 22:54:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Xen Solarus
Ban Bindy wrote:

The current cult of shooting non-combatants in high sec provides easy kills for those who live and die by the billboard.

These are the factors I think have killed null sec play.


^ This. Make High-Sec more secure, and force all the lazy people that claim to be doing PVP (by killing defenceless targets) to actually go and do PVP (Where the targets actually shoot back).

I've not lived in null for a long whiles now. Has everyone become best friends now? Can't someone just..... start a war or something? Lol

Post with your main, like a BOSS!

And no, i don't live in highsec.  As if that would make your opinion any less wrong.  
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#536 - 2012-06-20 22:57:12 UTC
But if we buff null or lowsec, we get eve's economist slitting his wrist over the rampant inflation, and if we nerf L4s we get people like Malphilos saying that the idea something needs to be nerfed is a symptom of a base and mean intellect.

And of course there's the mission runners who'll ***** and moan about how their isk faucet started dribbling instead of spurting, and incursion runners who'll literally just move back to wormholes or L4s or whatever it was they did before incursions were A Thing.

So much for that tight-knit community feeling.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Rer Eirikr
The Scope
#537 - 2012-06-20 22:57:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Rer Eirikr
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Level 4 missions are only a problem if one chooses to define them as such, and then put forward spurious arguments to support the thesis.


Then if I may be so bold, what would you consider to be the problem towards ISK generation in Null vs. HighSec, and the massive Industrial barrier? If you have a differing opinion by all means go for it dude, that's what a discussion is.


Lord Zim wrote:
But if we buff null or lowsec, we get eve's economist slitting his wrist over the rampant inflation, and if we nerf L4s we get people like Malphilos saying that the idea something needs to be nerfed is a symptom of a base and mean intellect.


Couldn't we make the argument though that if Null had more Industrials then there might also be more explosions? EVE's inflation has been so crazy for so long I don't think its fair to wave that around as the "excuse for why we can't buff Null Sec Industry"

(And yes I know there was a twinge of sarcasm/cynicism in your post :)
dontbanmebro
Doomheim
#538 - 2012-06-20 22:58:25 UTC
Xen Solarus wrote:
Ban Bindy wrote:

The current cult of shooting non-combatants in high sec provides easy kills for those who live and die by the billboard.

These are the factors I think have killed null sec play.


^ This. Make High-Sec more secure, and force all the lazy people that claim to be doing PVP to actually go and do PVP.



Hey, great, a double quote of why you will never get constructive debate on here.

Honestly, if people want real constructive debate, go to kugutsumen and open a thread in the "serious discussion" subforum. It may be slower, but you'll get very, very informed and constructive posts from people of all secs.

GD is for the culture war between idiots and not-idiots.
Riedle
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#539 - 2012-06-20 23:00:00 UTC
dontbanmebro wrote:
Rer Eirikr wrote:
Ahh, see, I knew you could informative post :)


Hey, if more people were asking questions and less people making uninformed walls of text, I'm sure a lot of us who actually know a thing or two about the topic would be making more positive and informative posts.

Posting on GD is usually like trying to empty an ocean of self-righteous stupidity with a spoon.


The idea of nerfing jump bridges is not borne out of ignorance on my part. The fact that you and your goon friends reacted so ridiculously to the thought of it was because it would make what you do now more difficult - which is the point. I live and fight in null sec and never use jump bridges. v0v

but don't mistake your lack of wanting an inconvenience to you as something that is good for EVE or in thinking you are more knowledgeable about the subject.
Rer Eirikr
The Scope
#540 - 2012-06-20 23:00:48 UTC
dontbanmebro wrote:
Honestly, if people want real constructive debate, go to kugutsumen and open a thread in the "serious discussion" subforum. It may be slower, but you'll get very, very informed and constructive posts from people of all secs.


This may sound insane but I'm trying to bring the same subculture of Serious Discussion to GD.




I know, I'm a masochist.