These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Attack frigate changes

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#61 - 2012-06-19 16:01:06 UTC
It's 5 less sig radius. And projectile guns don't use cap. And projectile guns are way easier to fit than hybrids. And considering skills and MWD, 10m/s end to be a lot more. And Atron is prone to armor tank. And Atron hp bonus is on hull.

Though I have to admit the hybrid falloff bonus is not so common on gallente hull, but that make sens : this ship cannot compete with the incursus in a full brawl, falloff allow him to kite.

I don't remember the bonus of the new rifter, but if they are the same than the slasher, that may be a bit redundant.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#62 - 2012-06-19 16:06:49 UTC
Wenron wrote:
Seishi Maru wrote:
ATRON:

Let me see.

Atron has more HP, more agility, same speed after you use a propulsion mod due to mass, more sensor strenght more lock range more cargo , easier to fit, more capacitor. Better bonus ( to hell with tracking when being able to fire further enacts same result).

Slasher has 1 less signature radius and 4% more resolution? Even the extra mid is not that great since its hard to fit anything useful there.

Yeah.. really?

This doesn't make sense to me either.

That's because it's misleading. The poster with example fits gives a more realistic comparison earlier in the thread. All Gallente hulls have more HP - but only because their hull HP is larger. Unfortunately, those HP statistics cannot be amplified as well as shield or armor HP.

"Same speed" - No, less speed.

"Cargo" - Slasher doesn't need cap booster to keep going because of capless weapons. Nos keeps point going. Otherwise cargo space is irrelevant.

"Easier to fit" - Minmatar weapons are easier to fit than Gallente weapons. Shield tank is easier to fit than armor tank. Etc...

"Better Bonus" - Tracking > falloff when you are orbiting at 500m under the guns of some cruiser hull.

So, whatever....
Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
#63 - 2012-06-19 16:15:42 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
It's 5 less sig radius. And projectile guns don't use cap. And projectile guns are way easier to fit than hybrids. And considering skills and MWD, 10m/s end to be a lot more. And Atron is prone to armor tank. And Atron hp bonus is on hull.

Though I have to admit the hybrid falloff bonus is not so common on gallente hull, but that make sens : this ship cannot compete with the incursus in a full brawl, falloff allow him to kite.

I don't remember the bonus of the new rifter, but if they are the same than the slasher, that may be a bit redundant.



nope it become LESS because atron has less mass. I would not be suprised if with overheated MWD the atron would go faster, but need to check precise numbers.
Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
#64 - 2012-06-19 16:16:20 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Wenron wrote:
Seishi Maru wrote:
ATRON:

Let me see.

Atron has more HP, more agility, same speed after you use a propulsion mod due to mass, more sensor strenght more lock range more cargo , easier to fit, more capacitor. Better bonus ( to hell with tracking when being able to fire further enacts same result).

Slasher has 1 less signature radius and 4% more resolution? Even the extra mid is not that great since its hard to fit anything useful there.

Yeah.. really?

This doesn't make sense to me either.

That's because it's misleading. The poster with example fits gives a more realistic comparison earlier in the thread. All Gallente hulls have more HP - but only because their hull HP is larger. Unfortunately, those HP statistics cannot be amplified as well as shield or armor HP.

"Same speed" - No, less speed.

"Cargo" - Slasher doesn't need cap booster to keep going because of capless weapons. Nos keeps point going. Otherwise cargo space is irrelevant.

"Easier to fit" - Minmatar weapons are easier to fit than Gallente weapons. Shield tank is easier to fit than armor tank. Etc...

"Better Bonus" - Tracking > falloff when you are orbiting at 500m under the guns of some cruiser hull.

So, whatever....



again check speed after you have a MWD ON. Atron has less mass therefore receives more speed bonus from MWD.
Wenron
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#65 - 2012-06-19 16:16:40 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Wenron wrote:
Seishi Maru wrote:
ATRON:

Let me see.

Atron has more HP, more agility, same speed after you use a propulsion mod due to mass, more sensor strenght more lock range more cargo , easier to fit, more capacitor. Better bonus ( to hell with tracking when being able to fire further enacts same result).

Slasher has 1 less signature radius and 4% more resolution? Even the extra mid is not that great since its hard to fit anything useful there.

Yeah.. really?

This doesn't make sense to me either.

That's because it's misleading. The poster with example fits gives a more realistic comparison earlier in the thread. All Gallente hulls have more HP - but only because their hull HP is larger. Unfortunately, those HP statistics cannot be amplified as well as shield or armor HP.

"Same speed" - No, less speed.

"Cargo" - Slasher doesn't need cap booster to keep going because of capless weapons. Nos keeps point going. Otherwise cargo space is irrelevant.

"Easier to fit" - Minmatar weapons are easier to fit than Gallente weapons. Shield tank is easier to fit than armor tank. Etc...

"Better Bonus" - Tracking > falloff when you are orbiting at 500m under the guns of some cruiser hull.

So, whatever....



To be clear, I get what you are saying.

What I have trouble with is the mass. I would expect the gallente to have better base agility, similar speed but more mass before plated. But maybe that is just me.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#66 - 2012-06-19 16:18:39 UTC
Seishi Maru wrote:
again check speed after you have a MWD ON. Atron has less mass therefore receives more speed bonus from MWD.
MWD or Afterburner? MWD is straight percentage bonus.
Lucas Quaan
Dark Enlightenment
New Eden Alliance 99013733
#67 - 2012-06-19 16:33:11 UTC
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
Atron -> Scales well with the other Gallente frigates, but hugely outperforms the other 3 listed here

Nerf Gallente?
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#68 - 2012-06-19 16:52:39 UTC
hey i just noticed that the condor's speed is getting nerfed by 4m/s why? and the slasher is now quicker than the crow and raptor the caldari interceptors

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Martin0
Brave Empire Inc.
Brave United
#69 - 2012-06-19 17:21:57 UTC
Cool, now when are you thinking to fix rigs?
You know, "passive" tanking rigs having speed malus and "active" rigs having a sig malus.
Mira Lynne
State War Academy
Caldari State
#70 - 2012-06-19 19:03:03 UTC
Seishi Maru wrote:
Sincere question why in hell over the last few years CCP has moved more and more away the minmatar main characteristics as the SPEED race. The more changes are made on last 3 years the more minmatar ships are closer to other races in speed. Up to the point we have negligible differences! Minmatar although kept their native disadvantages as inferior capacitor reserves...

Don't want to get into the balance merit here, but more on the flavor that is being lost more and more. And its not only on minmatar side.. most racial characteristics have been slowly being eroded and that is plain ... SAD.


When any balance is made a few things are sicerely expected and minmatar being clearly faster (not irrelevantly faster), amarr being clearly more sturdy, caldary being clearly range advantage and gallente clear damage advantage.

Despite that, Minmatar are still the fastest. Guess what! Each advantage comes with an equal disadvantage.
You seem to underestimate the advantage that speed gives you.
Minmatar 'native disadvantages' are really not that bad - not nearly as crippling as caldari disadvantages.
Racial characteristics are not being eroded at all, youre just expecting more to be handed to you with no effort on your part.
Racial Stereotypes are Bad, OK?
Minmatar are Fast because of Minmatar.
Caldari are Snipe because of Caldari.
If the new merlin is any indication, then i'm glad CCP is getting out of this mindset. Lets have some more Brick Minmatar Ships, and some more speedy nano amarr ships, and ofcourse some more Brawling Caldari ships.


Seishi Maru wrote:
nope it become LESS because atron has less mass. I would not be suprised if with overheated MWD the atron would go faster, but need to check precise numbers.

Translation: I dont know what im talking about but youre all wrong.
In all seriousness - be happy the slasher (Probably the best of the bunch) is better off than the Condor.

[u]I, too, horse frogs.[/u] Support the Return of Realistic Module Icons! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=114818&find=unread
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#71 - 2012-06-19 19:52:41 UTC
What would happen if these ships were moved from 4/3/3 to 3/4/3 layout across the board? That would allow for interesting variations like tracking computers, dual webs, shield extenders, cap boosters, etc. You could have a 3-weapon + lowslot damage mod + shield DPS fit, or fit EWAR, or otherwise gain a great deal more flexibility by moving the greatest number of slots to the middle. In the highs you could choose between three weapons or two and a utility.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Dato Koppla
Balls Deep Inc.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#72 - 2012-06-20 05:10:19 UTC
Seriously everyone is getting their panties in a bunch about Slicer/Atron balance when clearly the Condor has been shafted the worst.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#73 - 2012-06-20 08:00:26 UTC
Seishi Maru wrote:

again check speed after you have a MWD ON. Atron has less mass therefore receives more speed bonus from MWD.


You can do this too. 25t is not a lot at all : a 100mm plate is 27t and almost don't slow your ship at all. 200mm plate is 137,5t and this one start to slow the ship, but it's more than 10% of its total mass. Really, 25t really won't make the Atron faster, and I already sayed that the Atron is prone to armor tank as opposed to the slasher which will mostly shield tank ; and that's even before considering the rigs...

Don't know about the condor though, is rocket damage that low ? Ship should be considered in regards with other lines of ships though, because caldari slowness is natural, and here, the condor is able to field an amazing shield tank, that's not somethink to overlook when talking about tackle.
Ponder Yonder
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#74 - 2012-06-20 10:53:27 UTC
@CCP Ytterbium:

I don't think your Tormentor 'issue' is a big deal. Let's look at the stats:

Tormentor:
10% Small Energy Turret Capacitory Use
5% Small Energy Turret Damage

CPU 130 (-10)
Grid 49 (+34)
Hi 3 (+1)
Med 3 (+2)
Low 4 (+1)
Turret 2

Shield 350 (+243)
Armor 450 (+207)
Struct 400 (+165)
Drone Cap 10 (+5)
Drone BW 10 (+5)
Cargo 130 (-105)
Inertia 3.05 (-1.41)
Capacitor 400 (+275)
Cap Rech 200 (+106.25)
Lock range 40 (+15)
Scan Res 620 (+110)
RADAR 9 (+5)
Max Lock 4 (+1)
Sig Rad 35 (-10)
Velocity 320 (+19)

(HT: Tobiaz)

It can field 2 lasers, 2 drones and a nos/neut. It has enough PG/CPU to fit AB, full tackle, 400 plates and top-end guns. (200mm plates without rigs). It has three mids to allow full tackle. It can also fit a dual rep setup with rigs.

In short, it is a very forgiving ship. It is not the hardest hitter around, but it will take a lot of punishment while it wears the enemy down.

If one moves outside the short range engagement envelope, the 3/3/4 slot layout + 2 drones allow EWAR/Sniper fits as well.

I think it is a balanced ship, easy to get into, but requiring a lot of skill and SP to master. Also, I like the idea that Amarr has a drone frigate, of sorts, in preparation for their drone cruisers.
Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
#75 - 2012-06-20 12:31:57 UTC
Mira Lynne wrote:


Seishi Maru wrote:
nope it become LESS because atron has less mass. I would not be suprised if with overheated MWD the atron would go faster, but need to check precise numbers.

Translation: I dont know what im talking about but youre all wrong.
In all seriousness - be happy the slasher (Probably the best of the bunch) is better off than the Condor.



You are the one that have no Idea what you are talking about. You know Why the angel ships are so fast? It s not because of base speed. Its because of MASS. You know why the polycarbons were changed from mass reduction into speed bonus? Because 5% mass reduction results in FAR more than 5% extra speed after you put an MWD on.

Less cap, less lock range, and mostly less HP are not MINOR disadvantages when the final speed difference is on the range of 1% - to 2%

For all eve history minamtar shps were lighter. THEN at the nano nerf CCP made minmatar ships heavier than gallente and caldari even whiel statign that the relative differences between ships would. But was OK because minamtar were mosre agile.. then later they made gallente more agile.

They kept passign minmatar indentity to gallente because they failed to adress the real issues of gallente ship. Just a fail in game balance vs cohesion on the lore concepts.
Chiralos
Chiral's Angels
#76 - 2012-06-20 13:35:56 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
You are taking very fast frigates that have 6 slots and upgrading them to 10 slots. Their fitting grid is also getting an upgrade. These ships go interceptor speeds. For the above reasons I feel that a role bonus would be too much as well as out of place for tech 1


That was my first impression of these changes ... an unpleasant flavor of MUDflation.

But thinking about it more, I kind of like the idea of T1 being less efficient but more flexible than T2. Eg with theses tackle frigates, you could fit one to be as fast as a fast interceptor, but weaker; or as tough as the (other) tough interceptor, but slower. In other words, T2 is better at its role, but T1 can fill more roles. This would generally mean giving T1 more slots and T2 more bonuses.
Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
#77 - 2012-06-20 13:38:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Seishi Maru
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Seishi Maru wrote:

again check speed after you have a MWD ON. Atron has less mass therefore receives more speed bonus from MWD.


You can do this too. 25t is not a lot at all : a 100mm plate is 27t and almost don't slow your ship at all. 200mm plate is 137,5t and this one start to slow the ship, but it's more than 10% of its total mass. Really, 25t really won't make the Atron faster, and I already sayed that the Atron is prone to armor tank as opposed to the slasher which will mostly shield tank ; and that's even before considering the rigs...

Don't know about the condor though, is rocket damage that low ? Ship should be considered in regards with other lines of ships though, because caldari slowness is natural, and here, the condor is able to field an amazing shield tank, that's not somethink to overlook when talking about tackle.



Condor is not unbalanced because its uniqueness is on being able to lock at a MASSIVE range advantage over other frigates. That allows it to use an overheated warp disruptor. (PS. not saying its not in need of balance.. jsut that its advantage is "special" type)
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#78 - 2012-06-20 15:56:46 UTC
I have to say, I agree with this:

Quote:
As I said in the dev blog comments thread, if these ships are intended to fit into the 'Tech 1 interceptor' niche, why are they all being given double weapon bonuses, with a prop jamming role bonus thrown in on top? These are fast tacklers, their raison d'etre is to go fast and point/scram/web something, not be solo death machines. These things look for all the world just as offensive as, and not much less defensive than, the already-buffed 'combat' frigates (not least with the plethora of extra slots for tanking options and damage mods if desired).


I would say change one of their weapon bonuses for the cap use one, rather than have it as a role bonus.
Otherwise this looks pretty good. But care really should be taken over keeping these from treading on the toes of the heavy combat frigates.
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2012-06-20 17:12:57 UTC
After letting the attack frigate changes have a while to percolate through my brain, I've come to the conclusion the changes are pretty good overall. Yes, the role does step on the toes of the Interceptor, however with only a role bonus to tackling modules cap use, they are more generalists.

You don't have to fit tackle, and especially for the Caldari and Minmatar fit a bit of a shield tank, for Gallente and Ammar fit the mids for cap and run a armor rep/armor plate with EANMs and a Damage control, or even go totally all out for speed and fit them out with nanos and overdrive injectors, not to mention going the other route of fitting as many damage mods as you can. There are now so many ways that these hulls can be fit, it is going to be interesting to see what people can come up with when they come out, which is what CCP wanted.

"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
Mira Lynne
State War Academy
Caldari State
#80 - 2012-06-20 17:23:45 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Is rocket damage that low ?

Sadly, Yes. My Hawk (With Rage Rockets) is Out DPSed by my Merlin (Given, thats with Void)
But considering the differences in Price and the damage bonuses on the Hawk, its actually pretty sad.

Seishi Maru wrote:
-You know Why the angel ships are so fast? It s not because of base speed. Its because of MASS. You know why the polycarbons were changed from mass reduction into speed bonus? Because 5% mass reduction results in FAR more than 5% extra speed after you put an MWD on.

-Less cap, less lock range, and mostly less HP are not MINOR disadvantages when the final speed difference is on the range of 1% - to 2%

-For all eve history minamtar shps were lighter. THEN at the nano nerf CCP made minmatar ships heavier than gallente and caldari even whiel statign that the relative differences between ships would. But was OK because minamtar were mosre agile.. then later they made gallente more agile.

-They kept passign minmatar indentity to gallente because they failed to adress the real issues of gallente ship. Just a fail in game balance vs cohesion on the lore concepts.


-Angel ships are fast because of their mix of Speed and Low Mass, not simply one or the other. Even this is only on the Dramiel and the Cynabal. Look at the Macharie's mass compared to a Raven's mass. Surely a raven isnt as fast as a machariel.

-Again, you underestimate how major a speed increase is.
a Major Advantage deserves major disadvantages. Speed is a major advantage.
---Minmatar cap is low because minmatar weapons dont use cap.
---Minmatar have significantly more than a '1/2%' speed advantage.

-So what youre saying is that minmatar ships shouldnt have any disadvantages?

-Gallente is still not minmatar. Minmatar is still faster than gallente, and significantly so when compared to caldari. They are also more agile in most circumstances.

[u]I, too, horse frogs.[/u] Support the Return of Realistic Module Icons! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=114818&find=unread